Thanks for the well wishing. I have talked to the programmer and more or less gave him the go ahead to design the website the way he wants. He is doing all the work for free and hosting the website on his server. If the website turns out great we will be very happy. If it's a dud, at least we didn't pay for anything. So, how can we lose?
Having been a dial-up user for many years, I was mostly concerned about how long it would take to download all these animations, graphics, and gee-whiz stuff he wants to put on the website. According to the programmer, the new pages he will be writing automatically detect the connection speed of the user and will adjust how much stuff will be served. So a high speed broadband user will get the full show. A dial-up user will get only basic text type stuff - the animations, etc. will not be sent out. If it works that way I guess everybody will be happy. I won't pretend to understand at this point how the program detects the bandwidth, but it sounds reasonable, and I guess it makes sense to program just one website that is smart enough to scale back the heavy use bandwidth stuff for those on slower connections.
So, the project is back online. I'll let the programmer do his stuff and then see what the project looks like. I have this tread with all your suggestions so I will be trying to work in those ideas if we find the website lacking. When the website gets up and running, I'd appreciate it if you guys gave it a quick look. I'll be sending out the link via this thread when the site is posted. I'd appreciate any constructive comments, as always. Take care.
Well, our website is under construction. I have seen the skeleton setup. I'll reserve the right to later change my mind, but so far I really don't like what I see. What the programmer thinks are great flash animations only detracts from the focus of the website. Plus, it takes far too long to load the startup page, which for me is death in the crib. Worse yet, it loads background electronic music that has nothing to do with our band, or even our type of music. I'm really disappointed at this point, but like I said, the website is still under construction so it may improve. I'm just thankful I'm not paying for this project. The programmer is a good friend of mine, and this project is really turning into a big disappointment. But honestly, unless it improves significantly, nobody will be impressed with his work or our band's website. As it is, I would not even use it to promote the band.
Fortunately, I own the domain name so if this project goes bust, I know someone else who may build a new site for us and we would just transfer the files to his server. I'm really not looking forward to that, but if the website does not improve, I'll have to do something. Personally, I'd rather not have a website than have a real sucky website. So, I'm kind of down in the dumps about this project at the moment. Wish me better luck, guys. I need it.
Many of the \"extras\" you don't need at your site.
You need a band page w logo
Songlist
Calendar
Contact Info
The rest, media photos and the works are not required. Media will slow the sight and add requirements for bandwidth. Basic text pages with the 4 above should take little to no time for people to view. It's just text and a few images for web.
Thanks, Guitar3456. What is making this project so frustrating is that I know what you guys want in a good website. I know what I want in a website. Above all, it should promote the theme of the band, should be fast to load, and easy to navigate to extra stuff if you want to go further. Instead, what I am seeing, is a bunch of template flash animations that take almost 60 seconds to load on the startup screen, electronic music blasting at you with no way to turn it off other than killing your speakers, menu options that take up 3/4 of the page, and our band logo about the size of a postage stamp. I'm not kidding, at the moment it really sucks.
Since the programmer has made it clear that he is not very interested in my suggestions on website design, I'll let him finish his project. Like I said, it may change (I hope) for the better. Anyway, when he is done, I'll see if it fits our goals and if not I'll ask if it can be modified more in line with the suggestions I have written down from this thread and my personal notes from looking at other sites. It is so frustrating for me because this is a really good friend of the band and he really wants to put together a nice website for us (and to promote his business, too). But I'm beginning to think that he is not up to the task, or at least his idea of a good website is completely different from what I want.
Among my various life experiences is along the way I got a couple degrees in computer science. I am a programmer (in a previous life). Having said that, I am not a website designer, but can code HTML when I have to. I know when I see a bad design, and unfortunately, that's what I am seeing now. But I also know that I just don't have the time to create and maintain a website for my little cover band. I know too many people who spend all their time on maintaining their websites that really nobody cares about. I don't want to walk down that path. I need to spend my free time on practicing my bass playing and learning new songs - not on maintaining a website. Later.
How about suggesting that your friend complete the website the way HE wants to - in his mind he is doing his best to promote his skills/business
You could then suggest that he builds a simplier website to demonstrate that he can build a website \"to brief\" - i.e. he could put the brief on his website (a list of your suggestions taken from this thread) together with his interpretation of the brief
I think this could be a \"Win win\"
- you get exactly what you want
- he can complete the website how he wants
- you would actually be subtly pointing him in the right direction as to survive in business (especially in the current climate!) you MUST be able to deliver what your customer wants - by advertising this fact on his own website (with brief + completed website) he should stand a better chance of attracting customers - and may even \"see the light\" in the process
Personally, I'd rather not have a website than have a real sucky website
Thanks for the good suggestions. I have decided to bend like a palm tree in the wind and see what happens if I can be more flexible. Already, there has been some progress in the past few days. The programmer has now come to realize that the initial web page took far too long for most people to load. He has a super fast computer and a super fast internet connection. Great for him - I can't afford it. So the load time on us \"real\" users with our modest computers and internet speeds was almost 60 seconds. He finally came to realize that problem for us average folks and has rethought some things. So, big step forward.
Like you said, I think I just need to give him some time to put everything together and present it to us. Then, maybe, I can slowly suggest improvements. I hope he would consider it more of a challenge than a criticism at that point. As he works more on the project, I think we are getting closer to both our goals.
As a web developer, he's simply taking the wrong approach to proper design. Professional developers don't jump to code - they spend a considerable amount of planning and gathering requirements. Otherwise they're wasting their time. It's really unprofessional
In a nutshell, when you gather requirements, you talk about certain basic things - with the customer:
* content
* functionality
* browser compatibility
* loading time
*... and many more bullets that he should have had prepared before he ever talked to the customer
Content - like show dates, sound samples, bios, contact info, etc
Functionality - being able to turn off splash screens; being able to play streaming audio vs downloading; viewing images; etc
Browser compatibility - is this designed for Internet Explorer exclusively, or Firefox, Opera, Chrome, and whatever else is out there?
Loading time - this is a specific benchmark requirement. You phrase it like this: \"Main page must load completely within 15 seconds of connection on a basic Cable/DSL connection.\"
Maybe he's trying to play with all his toys at once - that's fine, he's a friend of yours and he's doing it for free. He just needs to realize that, with real clients, a crappy web site is not the kind of exposure he wants, and proper requirements gathering and use case analysis is an absolute must.
Just a suggestion gtaus but why not post a link on this forum to a \"demo\" of the site and let people from all corners check it out and give feedback?
I guess the developer won't want to set it live until it's fully finished.
I have done a little bit of web design in the past and I would have to say that I have always followed the instructions of the customer.
Mind you, sometimes they have given absolutely no feedback what so ever.....which was nice! This made it twice as hard!
I'm sure everyone here would give you an honest opinion if you show them a demo site, then you could take it down after a week or so to polish it up to the finished article! (well, the start as I'm sure it will grow all the time!)
Maybe not my place to say but just wanted to chip in
Edit: Just remembered something though, I was so used to doing business sites that when a band asked me to do their site I worked on it for weeks. When it finally came to the \"Great Unveiling\" they hated it....and me!!.....They said I made them look like a BMW garage!
As a web developer, he's simply taking the wrong approach to proper design. Professional developers don't jump to code - they spend a considerable amount of planning and gathering requirements. Otherwise they're wasting their time.....
You are exactly correct. I was schooled in the old ways of spending lots of time interviewing the client to get an understanding of what they needed, what they wanted, and what they could pay for. But lots of time was spent up front just talking about requirements before we ever considered coding. I don't know how the schools are teaching the kids now, but with web design it seems there are alot of script puppies running around creating websites and then thinking later about the requirements. Just my personal impressions from some younger people I know, and may not hold true to the larger web design community.
Just a suggestion gtaus but why not post a link on this forum to a \"demo\" of the site and let people from all corners check it out and give feedback?.....I guess the developer won't want to set it live until it's fully finished.....I'm sure everyone here would give you an honest opinion if you show them a demo site....Edit: Just remembered something though, I was so used to doing business sites that when a band asked me to do their site I worked on it for weeks. When it finally came to the \"Great Unveiling\" they hated it....and me!!.....They said I made them look like a BMW garage!
I won't post the link until the programmer is done with his work. It would not be fair to him. It would be too easy to tear it apart right now and I get the feeling that the programmer is not too good at accepting constructive suggestions.....
When it gets done, I offer up the link. But I can tell you now, that unless it really undergoes some major mods, I am too excited about passing out our URL. Like I said, I'd rather not have any website than a really sucky website.
It's a good friend of the band that is doing the website for free and I just hope that website turns out OK. He has supported the band in any number of ways since we started playing 2 years ago, so losing a friend and his support would be tough. So I am hoping that things will improve. I really don't care if the website project turns into a bust, I just don't want to lose his support and friendship for the band - which is really more valuable for us.
I know the guys would give me some honest feedback on the website. At the moment, it's just not ready for comments.
I don't know how the schools are teaching the kids now, but with web design it seems there are alot of script puppies running around creating websites and then thinking later about the requirements. Just my personal impressions from some younger people I know, and may not hold true to the larger web design community.
I recently took a system design/business analysis class as part of my Master's program, which basically said that. Very formal approach to the subject matter in today's environment.
So, the project is back online. When the website gets up and running, I'd appreciate it if you guys gave it a quick look. I'll be sending out the link via this thread when the site is posted. I'd appreciate any constructive comments, as always. Take care.
Haven't read through the entire thread, so not sure if anyone has suggested using a CMS (content management system), but I recently set up a new site to chronicle my musical endeavors (linked in my sig) using Joomla.
A full CMS would allow easy updates and new content to be posted by the band members themselves without having to involve a \"web guy\" (which is what I do professionally). I've used SOOP and dotNETNuke in the past for other sites. I'll admit that compared to those, Joomla has a bit of a learning curve to get it set up and laid out initially, but after that it's by far the most robust CMS I've ever used.
The guy who was doing the website for free pretty much lost his desire to complete the project. I don't think he will finish it. I guess you get what you pay for....
I have been really busy this summer with a number of issues, but maybe I will have time to devote to building a website later this fall. I was not happy with the project of the other programmer, so maybe I'll have to do it myself. The suggestions you guys have given me will be valuable when/if I start to take over the project. Like I said, I'd rather not have a website than having a really sucky website. Right now, it's still really bad.
GNX Jammer, thanks for the suggestions. I'll look at those programs if I get into the project myself. It's been a long time since I did any Website work (HTML 3.0 anyone?).
Problem now is booking gigs for the band. First things first.... Need those gigs to make a website worthwhile. Have no intention of spending all my time on a website if the band can't get paying gigs soon. Times are tough.
Back into rereading this thread and the posts with your suggestions. I found someone else who may be able to build a website for the band that we can use. The band survived the summer with hardly any gigs, but now we are starting to get more action again and venues have been calling us. Our new lineup is better than ever, and it looks like we might be around for awhile longer. So, once again, I'll be taking notes on your suggestions and trying to work with this new programmer. Maybe someday I'll actually have a link to post for you guys.
I found someone else who may be able to build a website for the band that we can use. .... So, once again, I'll be taking notes on your suggestions and trying to work with this new programmer. Maybe someday I'll actually have a link to post for you guys.
That's cool taus. Hope this one does a more realistic page for ya, than one that's akin to walkin down the strip in vegas.. LoL
I didn't read the whole thread again... But really ...
What makes a great band website? A great band! And from the sound of things you guys should have a very nice page 8) , no matter who builds it! JMHO
Comments
Having been a dial-up user for many years, I was mostly concerned about how long it would take to download all these animations, graphics, and gee-whiz stuff he wants to put on the website. According to the programmer, the new pages he will be writing automatically detect the connection speed of the user and will adjust how much stuff will be served. So a high speed broadband user will get the full show. A dial-up user will get only basic text type stuff - the animations, etc. will not be sent out. If it works that way I guess everybody will be happy. I won't pretend to understand at this point how the program detects the bandwidth, but it sounds reasonable, and I guess it makes sense to program just one website that is smart enough to scale back the heavy use bandwidth stuff for those on slower connections.
So, the project is back online. I'll let the programmer do his stuff and then see what the project looks like. I have this tread with all your suggestions so I will be trying to work in those ideas if we find the website lacking. When the website gets up and running, I'd appreciate it if you guys gave it a quick look. I'll be sending out the link via this thread when the site is posted. I'd appreciate any constructive comments, as always. Take care.
Fortunately, I own the domain name so if this project goes bust, I know someone else who may build a new site for us and we would just transfer the files to his server. I'm really not looking forward to that, but if the website does not improve, I'll have to do something. Personally, I'd rather not have a website than have a real sucky website. So, I'm kind of down in the dumps about this project at the moment. Wish me better luck, guys. I need it.
You need a band page w logo
Songlist
Calendar
Contact Info
The rest, media photos and the works are not required. Media will slow the sight and add requirements for bandwidth. Basic text pages with the 4 above should take little to no time for people to view. It's just text and a few images for web.
Since the programmer has made it clear that he is not very interested in my suggestions on website design, I'll let him finish his project. Like I said, it may change (I hope) for the better. Anyway, when he is done, I'll see if it fits our goals and if not I'll ask if it can be modified more in line with the suggestions I have written down from this thread and my personal notes from looking at other sites. It is so frustrating for me because this is a really good friend of the band and he really wants to put together a nice website for us (and to promote his business, too). But I'm beginning to think that he is not up to the task, or at least his idea of a good website is completely different from what I want.
Among my various life experiences is along the way I got a couple degrees in computer science. I am a programmer (in a previous life). Having said that, I am not a website designer, but can code HTML when I have to. I know when I see a bad design, and unfortunately, that's what I am seeing now. But I also know that I just don't have the time to create and maintain a website for my little cover band. I know too many people who spend all their time on maintaining their websites that really nobody cares about. I don't want to walk down that path. I need to spend my free time on practicing my bass playing and learning new songs - not on maintaining a website. Later.
Here is a \"recovery plan\" suggestion...
How about suggesting that your friend complete the website the way HE wants to - in his mind he is doing his best to promote his skills/business
You could then suggest that he builds a simplier website to demonstrate that he can build a website \"to brief\" - i.e. he could put the brief on his website (a list of your suggestions taken from this thread) together with his interpretation of the brief
I think this could be a \"Win win\"
- you get exactly what you want
- he can complete the website how he wants
- you would actually be subtly pointing him in the right direction as to survive in business (especially in the current climate!) you MUST be able to deliver what your customer wants - by advertising this fact on his own website (with brief + completed website) he should stand a better chance of attracting customers - and may even \"see the light\" in the process
I think you are spot on there and I agree 100%!
Like you said, I think I just need to give him some time to put everything together and present it to us. Then, maybe, I can slowly suggest improvements. I hope he would consider it more of a challenge than a criticism at that point. As he works more on the project, I think we are getting closer to both our goals.
In a nutshell, when you gather requirements, you talk about certain basic things - with the customer:
* content
* functionality
* browser compatibility
* loading time
*... and many more bullets that he should have had prepared before he ever talked to the customer
Content - like show dates, sound samples, bios, contact info, etc
Functionality - being able to turn off splash screens; being able to play streaming audio vs downloading; viewing images; etc
Browser compatibility - is this designed for Internet Explorer exclusively, or Firefox, Opera, Chrome, and whatever else is out there?
Loading time - this is a specific benchmark requirement. You phrase it like this: \"Main page must load completely within 15 seconds of connection on a basic Cable/DSL connection.\"
Maybe he's trying to play with all his toys at once - that's fine, he's a friend of yours and he's doing it for free. He just needs to realize that, with real clients, a crappy web site is not the kind of exposure he wants, and proper requirements gathering and use case analysis is an absolute must.
I guess the developer won't want to set it live until it's fully finished.
I have done a little bit of web design in the past and I would have to say that I have always followed the instructions of the customer.
Mind you, sometimes they have given absolutely no feedback what so ever.....which was nice! This made it twice as hard!
I'm sure everyone here would give you an honest opinion if you show them a demo site, then you could take it down after a week or so to polish it up to the finished article! (well, the start as I'm sure it will grow all the time!)
Maybe not my place to say but just wanted to chip in
Edit: Just remembered something though, I was so used to doing business sites that when a band asked me to do their site I worked on it for weeks. When it finally came to the \"Great Unveiling\" they hated it....and me!!.....They said I made them look like a BMW garage!
You are exactly correct. I was schooled in the old ways of spending lots of time interviewing the client to get an understanding of what they needed, what they wanted, and what they could pay for. But lots of time was spent up front just talking about requirements before we ever considered coding. I don't know how the schools are teaching the kids now, but with web design it seems there are alot of script puppies running around creating websites and then thinking later about the requirements. Just my personal impressions from some younger people I know, and may not hold true to the larger web design community.
I won't post the link until the programmer is done with his work. It would not be fair to him. It would be too easy to tear it apart right now and I get the feeling that the programmer is not too good at accepting constructive suggestions.....
When it gets done, I offer up the link. But I can tell you now, that unless it really undergoes some major mods, I am too excited about passing out our URL. Like I said, I'd rather not have any website than a really sucky website.
It's a good friend of the band that is doing the website for free and I just hope that website turns out OK. He has supported the band in any number of ways since we started playing 2 years ago, so losing a friend and his support would be tough. So I am hoping that things will improve. I really don't care if the website project turns into a bust, I just don't want to lose his support and friendship for the band - which is really more valuable for us.
I know the guys would give me some honest feedback on the website. At the moment, it's just not ready for comments.
I recently took a system design/business analysis class as part of my Master's program, which basically said that. Very formal approach to the subject matter in today's environment.
BUMP
Is this DIW?
A full CMS would allow easy updates and new content to be posted by the band members themselves without having to involve a \"web guy\" (which is what I do professionally). I've used SOOP and dotNETNuke in the past for other sites. I'll admit that compared to those, Joomla has a bit of a learning curve to get it set up and laid out initially, but after that it's by far the most robust CMS I've ever used.
Just a thought, though it may be a little late.
I have been really busy this summer with a number of issues, but maybe I will have time to devote to building a website later this fall. I was not happy with the project of the other programmer, so maybe I'll have to do it myself. The suggestions you guys have given me will be valuable when/if I start to take over the project. Like I said, I'd rather not have a website than having a really sucky website. Right now, it's still really bad.
GNX Jammer, thanks for the suggestions. I'll look at those programs if I get into the project myself. It's been a long time since I did any Website work (HTML 3.0 anyone?).
Problem now is booking gigs for the band. First things first.... Need those gigs to make a website worthwhile. Have no intention of spending all my time on a website if the band can't get paying gigs soon. Times are tough.
That's cool taus. Hope this one does a more realistic page for ya, than one that's akin to walkin down the strip in vegas.. LoL
I didn't read the whole thread again... But really ...
What makes a great band website? A great band! And from the sound of things you guys should have a very nice page 8) , no matter who builds it! JMHO