Readers Dont Digest

groovy · October 2006

G3456 wrote at http://www.digitech.com/soundcomm/guitar_view_patch.asp?productid=215&patch_id=10461

this one demonstrates micing/speaker phase. Ch 1 is at the paper, ch 2 is cone and yellow is the off axis mix. these are comps of Krank Rev dimed using Royer Ribbons instead of SM57's. We also used a classic out of phase speaker trick so change the chorus level (assigned to lfo) and listen to the difference. This is how many engi's offset traditional speaker phasing.. hard to demo on the 3K, but it's pretty close. many heavy musicians like to use the out of phase method for palm mutes and other hard plucking attacks.

This claim above breaks many industry standard principles on Sound Engineering. It even goes against the Digitech technical manuals !!!

But Alas, our forum has too few EE's and sound engineers. The general belief here is \"If it sounds good, we accept any BS that comes along with it\"

zap · October 2006

Over at www.gonnahitcharide.com there are a number of engineers including \"rockmodule\" that know of S R & D cabinets having a 15\", 10\" and bullet tweeter with the 10\" acoustically isolated and OUT OF PHASE. See the Tech Section in forum. There was considerable argument of why Scholz(masters from MIT) would do such a thing. David at www.perfectsoundrockrefurbs.com verified this with one original cabinet he bought on ebay for completing 8 stacks - the only other 8 complete stacks known to exist together is Boston's. I don't know if Vince does this with his new replicas at www.rackmountconcepts.com

So as in medicine, in engineering there are quirk methods and discoveries with radical departures of known tradtion in our quest for discovery.

Also, engineer Bob Cedro, now at Dunlop, did confirm this to some fan forum members.

Dobb · October 2006

The general belief here is \"If it sounds good, we accept any BS that comes along with it\"

Actually the general belief here is that you are so jealous of g3456's success with HIS supermodels, you just can't stop pissin' and moaning.:roll:

I know the story,

My twelve year old plays tackle football. He is the starting running back. There's this other kid, we'll call Archy. Well Arch is real jealous of my son, because he really wanted to be runningback, but my son was better, faster and smarter, and thus has earned the starting job. Arch can't let a day go by, without insulting my son, putting him down, or questioning my son's skills...from the bench :P !

So my son asks \" Why is Arch such a dickweed to me dad, I thought we were all on the same team?\" I had to explain to him that sometimes in life you will come up against people who will wish ill things for you, simply because they are JEALOUS of your accomplishments. I explained further that the best thing he could do, is to take this jealous fool for what he was... a jealous fool. Then my son asked me \" Why doesn't Arch use all that effort to concentrate on improving his own skills, instead of wasting his time dissing me?\"

Yeah, thats a good question.

Just wonderin'

Dobb.

Tal Rules · October 2006

\groovy\ wrote:

G3456 wrote at

But Alas, our forum has too few EE's and sound engineers. The general belief here is \"If it sounds good, we accept any BS that comes along with it\"

I am an EE in my real job..
When it comes to music though I leave all that as far behind as I can. I just want it to sound good. :P .

Like Wes Montgomery said...
\"Just give me a Gibson L5 and an amp\"
That's all the tone you'll ever need.. 8) .

guitar3456 · October 2006

Groovy , Websurf, Tons of Tones.. whoever you are

Get a life! You have to search posts and blast me at every attempt!

First of all, you know nothing of my credentials..

you may have a math degree or whatever, but you've most likely have NEVER worked in the field.. you've never worked on any amps or modified anything but your screen names. You certainly need educated on professionalism!

You blast me and know nothing about me.. I choose not to comment most of the time to anything you remark. But this is getting pretty aggravating!

When you have worked with/for the House of Blues, R&R hall of fame, DRZ amps, Ear Candy cabs, run Pro Sound installs and services as well as a recording studio, provided educational assistance to public schools and lastly played music professionally... You might know something!

Just like clients of mine, I keep techo jargon to a minimum. My descriptions are simplified but obvioulsy not enough.. I 'll fix that and start using names like OOoo's and Aaaah's... if it'll make you happier!

groovy · October 2006

Let's not get personal here.

G3456, you make some tall technical claims that I find rather circumspect , so I ask some technical questions. Thats all that there is to it.

You want to defend yourself, dont still continue throwing around names like also in your last post. Thats the defence that the weak take !!!

Let's just have your technical replies supporting your tall technical claims.

If you are willing to come up with straight technical replies to straight technical questions regarding your stories, here is the first one ---

A) It is normally considered that Mic placement is a speaker/mic subsystem thing. Ie changing the placement of the Mic does not change the properties of the Amp that is driving the Speaker.

However your patch that supposedly emulates Mic placement via warp also warps the Amps with their tone controls/gain/levels et al.

So the first straight technical question to for you is : What exactly has a Mic's placement got to do with an Amp's gain control ?

lazarus · October 2006

ok - well ive emailed alpha 24 who didnt want to get involved and ive emailed Tal who obviously didnt want to get involved either.

but i can assure you that groovy and tons of tones and websurf have absolutely nothing to do with Archon because i am Archon and after i was banned here i went over to the line 6 toneport site where i have been doing what i always did over here, ie being friendly, helpful as much as i can and talking about home recording wich i love.

the only trouble i ever had was here and it was because i thought G3456 was doing something wrong and then everyone ganged up on me and i fought back - and then they banned me but didnt tell anyone as they thought that was kind of funny - wich only adds to my opinion that you lot arent very nice people and definately not a crowd i want to be associated with.

so if you would do me the immense pleasure of shutting the hell up DOBB i can go about my business elsewhere without being dragged into this rubbish anymore.

goooodbyeeee!

partch · October 2006

Hey Archon, or Lazarus not to get of the subject or anything? But I noticed you also hang out at Jamstix forum. I noticed you also posted a pretty darn cool song. I can't think of the name of it? But hey I've been evaluating Jamstix, well trying to when I get time to play around with it. Well that's the moto right? Just Play with it. You may also noticed a Jamstix thread that I started quite sometime ago? Anyhow if you don't mind. What do you think of the program? How long have you been using it? Just drop me some dirt on it what you think of it etc.. if you would please. Thanks man!!

God Bless!!
Partch

lazarus · October 2006

well ok but after this im logging off and riding of into the sunset!

jamstix is excellent - use the freejam mode to come up with a basic arrangement wich you can then go into afterwards to tweak the fills/intros and rythms. you can use it as a dumb drum vst to play midi loops or you can let it jam on midi loops. its also very good at creating midi loops and fills that you can turn into groove clips and use with other drums vsts - ez drummers sounds better but it doesnt have the functionality of jamstix - im thinking of using both = jamstix to create the midi and ez drummer to play it back = its worth the money anywa = HTH!

partch · October 2006

Thanks Archon!! Yes it did help!!

God Bless You!!
Partch

Dobb · October 2006

Hey Archon/lazarus,

It's interesting to see that you can't keep away! I just used the first fictitious name that came to mind...so get over yourself! :roll:

I know for a fact (I wasn't intending to imply) that you are NOT groovy/web surf/tonsoftones. I knew that a long time ago.

My apologies if you thought I was accusing you of being him/them. I wasn't accusing you of anything, you just have a similar name to the FICTITIOUS one that I used. Again, any other similarities are purely coincidental. The football story is 100% true and ( I think) a great analogy which I stand by.

I assure you that I had no intention of dragging you anywhere, and I'm glad you've found a new home at the line6 forums.

Enjoy the Sunset...

Dobb.

iliace · October 2006

Guys, please don't get personal. This is really not the place.

Tal Rules · October 2006

\lazarus\ wrote:

ok - well ive emailed alpha 24 who didnt want to get involved and ive emailed Tal who obviously didnt want to get involved either.

Yep....

I suggest you guys duke it tonight on WWF RAW...

G3456...I feel your pain...
The thread that won't die.... :roll:
A guy can't even post a patch without getting hammered...

I'll just stick with the one that brought me..
Clean.......

And hopefully let the guitar do the talking... 8)

grathan · October 2006

\lazarus\ wrote:

ok - well ive emailed alpha 24 who didnt want to get involved and ive emailed Tal who obviously didnt want to get involved either.

but i can assure you that groovy and tons of tones and websurf have absolutely nothing to do with Archon because i am Archon and after i was banned here i went over to the line 6 toneport site where i have been doing what i always did over here, ie being friendly, helpful as much as i can and talking about home recording wich i love.

the only trouble i ever had was here and it was because i thought G3456 was doing something wrong and then everyone ganged up on me and i fought back - and then they banned me but didnt tell anyone as they thought that was kind of funny - wich only adds to my opinion that you lot arent very nice people and definately not a crowd i want to be associated with.

so if you would do me the immense pleasure of shutting the hell up DOBB i can go about my business elsewhere without being dragged into this rubbish anymore.

goooodbyeeee!

I hear ya Archon, this place is ice cold.

groovy · October 2006

\Tal Rules\ wrote:

A guy can't even post a patch without getting hammered...

Dear Tal,

Please dont misunderstand this thread.

There are many patch posters that try out warps, find a sound that is close to some artist and post it.

They say something similar to \"I use this for XXXXXXXX\"

That is a clean and honest declaration for their work. They deserve Kudos for their work.

Then comes G3456 and he makes technical claims that are against all generally held beliefs. He goes against DT's patents and against common sense.

If I ask G3456 a gentle question to clarify his post, do you classify that as hammering ?

Here goes again, as gently as possible.

Dear G3456 : You have made a claim that changing a Mic's position changes the gain of the Amp driving that Miced Loudspeaker. Please clarify.

ne1roc · October 2006

But Alas, our forum has too few EE's and sound engineers. The general belief here is \"If it sounds good, we accept any BS that comes along with it\"

So you finally figured that out eh? Just in case you did not realize this, most of us are a bunch of guitarists just looking for \"The Tone\".
Basically we all bought our GNX's because we were willing to accept the BS from Digitech that they have made these cool units that modelled great amplifiers. The majority of us are happy. That all that matters.
If guitar3456 stuck a ribbon mic on his ass hole and came up with a Krank patch that and blows us all away (pardon the pun), thats all that matters!

Break the rules you jerk. Thats the only way to make new ones.

You know, maybe I'll get banned for bringing this up, but I find it odd that Administration allows characters like you and your buddies at Tons of Bull to constantly slander the methods and results of someone who has been extremely helpful to everyone on this forum for years? In the mean time, what have you done for this forum? Nothing but cause aggravation.

ACWild · October 2006

I actually think ToT has good intentions with the patches and think it's great that they're willing to share. What I find distracting is their petty obsession with Gtr3456. Personally, every time that you guys try to descredit him, you actually discredit yourselves. While the facts that you present may or may not be factual, (I'm definitely not an EE and have no aspirations to be), your shots at 3456 always appear to be rooted out of jealousy rather than an honest attempt at truth. JMHO, but that's the way it appears.

I honestly think it's great that you want to improve patches. Can you stick to that instead of Gtr3456? I'm with Tal, let's just make some tunes. 8)

groovy · October 2006

So Ne1roc,

Do I take it that you believe G3456's claim that changing the position of a Mic alters the gain control of the Amp it was connected to ?

And do you believe that an IC has only one internal gain stage ?

and better still, do you agree that a patch can correct tone deficiencies of a 212 cabinet and be transparent, both at the same time ?

These are only some of the technical gaffes that G3456 has come up with recently.

I have politely asked some technical clarifications. The normal civil way is to receive polite technical replies directly from the addressed party.

ne1roc · October 2006

\groovy\ wrote:

So Ne1roc,

Do I take it that you believe G3456's claim that changing the position of a Mic alters the gain control of the Amp it was connected to ?

And do you believe that an IC has only one internal gain stage ?

and better still, do you agree that a patch can correct tone deficiencies of a 212 cabinet and be transparent, both at the same time ?

These are only some of the technical gaffes that G3456 has come up with recently.

I have politely asked some technical clarifications. The normal civil way is to receive polite technical replies directly from the addressed party.

I believe in the results. Thats all that matters to me.

zap · October 2006

Perhaps some misinterpretations of sentence clauses have locked the concepts as opposing where precise language would not be an issue.

For example DigiTech at Wikipedia shows an external link at the bottom for Tons of Tones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DigiTech

A founder of Wikipedia, Larry Sanger, wants to scrutinize contibuters via peer review with a competing site Citizendium. That would ask some basic competancy questions before letting unkown contributors mask their citizenship, schooling, training, etc. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/e62ce8a4-5d3e-11db-9d15-0000779e2340.html

That might be an issue here, also.

Dobb · October 2006

but I find it odd that Administration allows characters like you and your buddies at Tons of Bull to constantly slander the methods and results of someone who has been extremely helpful to everyone on this forum for years? In the mean time, what have you done for this forum? Nothing but cause aggravation.

every time that you guys try to descredit him, you actually discredit yourselves

your shots at 3456 always appear to be rooted out of jealousy rather than an honest attempt at truth

Amen Brothers! Keep the truth coming!

Dobb.

TonsOfTones · October 2006

Please keep us out of this

Tal Rules · October 2006

\groovy\ wrote:

\Tal Rules\ wrote:

A guy can't even post a patch without getting hammered...

Dear Tal,

Please dont misunderstand this thread.

There are many patch posters that try out warps, find a sound that is close to some artist and post it.

They say something similar to \"I use this for XXXXXXXX\"

That is a clean and honest declaration for their work. They deserve Kudos for their work.

Then comes G3456 and he makes technical claims that are against all generally held beliefs. He goes against DT's patents and against common sense.

If I ask G3456 a gentle question to clarify his post, do you classify that as hammering ?

Here goes again, as gently as possible.

Dear G3456 : You have made a claim that changing a Mic's position changes the gain of the Amp driving that Miced Loudspeaker. Please clarify.

Gosh..
Why on earth do you guys keep trying to drag me into this cat fight? :?
I don't play pro. I've got a day job.
With the little amount of spare time I have I just play my guitar and listen to music. This whole patch thing as well as most of this whole cab modeling thing doesn't effect me one iota. Mostly I just play clean guitar with a touch of reverb.

Like I said earlier now with an amendment...

I prefer to let my guitar do the talking... 8) 8)

As close to it's natural voice as possible, and not a bunch of digital patches. 8) 8) 8)

You want to make some killer patches???? :shock:
Try making one of an L5 going through an Acoustic Image, or a Polytone, through all settings of the tone know. Make a patch with Wes's tone going through his trusty Standell. Then repeat the above operations using round wounds, flat wounds. Then find a vintage D'Aquisto New Yorker and do the same thing.. :!: Man...If these patches were available, I could have just bought a Squire, and saved thousands by not buying the guitars, I presently own..

Why aren't the things above done.. :?: .
Money.... Nothing to do with scientific jargon...
Money, Plain and simple..
One guy out of a hundred plays clean, wanting to capture the tone of great archtop guitars, the other 99 want their sound distorted, (which is cool by me, just usually not my cup of tea)

But....Bottom Line...Money is what this whole thing is about..

Who you gonna market to???

Well if you guys are targeting me, you've defintely targeted the wrong cat. I can pretty much bet you my life savings, that I will not purchase any patches, from anybody, unless, ones of the type mentiouned above are produced. And to add to that I've already got the axes to get that TONE, so probably wouldn't purchase them even if they were produced.

So PLEASE..... Take your marketing strategy to other sources and leave me out of it... :P :P :P

The GNX 4 is just a way for me to record. Albeit digitally, I usually just use 3 patches. Clean chorus, Late night, and Pat Jazz. Emulates my REAL Roland Jazz Chorus sufficiently for me. And lately I've been using dry guitar input to add reverb in Sonar.

Patches.... :?
I don't need no stinkin' Patches...

ACWild · October 2006

\TonsOfTones\ wrote:

Please keep us out of this

I think Gtr34546 has the same sentiments.

groovy · October 2006

\ne1roc\ wrote:

\groovy\ wrote:

So Ne1roc,

Do I take it that you believe G3456's claim that changing the position of a Mic alters the gain control of the Amp it was connected to ?

And do you believe that an IC has only one internal gain stage ?

and better still, do you agree that a patch can correct tone deficiencies of a 212 cabinet and be transparent, both at the same time ?

These are only some of the technical gaffes that G3456 has come up with recently.

I have politely asked some technical clarifications. The normal civil way is to receive polite technical replies directly from the addressed party.

I believe in the results. Thats all that matters to me.

Lets look at the results : If you test a Speaker cabinet with out of phase connections by feeding it with a sine wave, what is the output that you get ?

If we feed a Chorus with the same sine wave, what output do you get ?

Are they are same ? Similar ?

iliace · October 2006

guitar3456 · October 2006

I think everybody here knows that all of these things in patches and amp models, effects etc are simulations created with sampled approximations. That's why they get with any digital MODELER, Pc or hardware.

No claims, it's not a real tube, real speaker, real anything.. it's digital modeling. It's no different than software modeling or rack mount synth's..
The patch posted is just an example of phasing characteristics..nothing more. Just an example of an approximated sound I've done many times here in the studio with real amps and cabs. NOBODY can recreate the REAL phasing idea digitally since there are infinite analog variables no GNX or Line6 Vox Korg Boss or Zoom can handle! But you can get the idea. Take a listen to Houses of the Holy.. they used anything from speaker phasing, plastic garbage cans, styrofoam cups, linens, large carpet roll tubes, road construction cones, and other things mic'd up to get ODD sounds for Mr Page out of the same amp! Experimentation!!! It's part of the fun !

FWIW- Purists will never buy into anything digital and it's a dead horse issue to many of them. I keep a soundcraft board and Otari recorder ready for discrete channel analog enthusiasts.. we see em often. They won't buy into Protools either no matter if Pro's in the field use it all day!

Cobaltblooz · October 2006

\iliace\ wrote:

HEY, THATS NOT A Troll....THATS a Leprachan....and as an Irishman I take offense to this depiction of starving the wee folk!

ACWild · October 2006

I thought it was some dude about to get hit with a turkey. :?

iliace · October 2006

\Cobaltblooz\ wrote:

HEY, THATS NOT A Troll....THATS a Leprachan....and as an Irishman I take offense to this depiction of starving the wee folk!

Blame Wikipedia, that's where I got that one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Dobb · October 2006

Troll, huh.

So it doesn't mean one of those bar trolls...you know the ones. You hear the stories of dudes picking up one of them beer goggles babes for the ONS, then chewing their arms off (in the morning) just to get away? huh.

Oh INTERNET troll!!!

I thought the sign meant \" Don't feed the leprechauns Turkey!\"

Dobb.

Readers Dont Digest

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