Soundboard problem, need advice.
Hey guys, wanted to separate this issue out from my previous post. Here is the problem we had with our soundguy at our last gig. For some reason, he thinks that if he turns down the vocal stage monitors, that us singers actually sing better. Those of us up on stage, however, want a good, strong, monitor feed so we can hear ourselves. If the monitor is weak, we start to oversing.
As it happened, at our last gig, our lead singer's voice gave out on him in the last set. We found out - from our soundguy - that he had intentionally turned down the vocal monitor to \"make\" our lead singer sing stronger. That did not go over well with our lead singer, as you can imagine. After the set, I went over to the board and checked the settings. The lead vocal channel was actually set at about -3 to -5 dB.
If I was running the board, and needed more lead vocals, I'd just boost the slider on the track. I don't understand at all this idea of reducing the monitor level to make the singer sing louder, and then cutting the level on the channel fader for the mains!? In a large part, I think our soundguy's idea of reducing the monitor levels contributed to our lead singer losing his voice. (For those of you who have not read my previous post, this was an outside gig in 45 degree weather - it was cold. So we had a number of issues working against us.)
So here are some questions I have for you guys that run soundboards and maybe you can help.
First of all, I think the gain should be set on each channel so that the vocal/instrument does not clip. Second of all, if the gain is set properly, I was thinking that the channel fader can be boosted above 0 dB without causing distortion. Do I have this right? If not, how much can you boost a live channel before you get distortion?
Second question, I only had the power amps at about half way, which usually is more than enough for our small gigs. I had all kinds of headroom on the PA amps if needed. But the soundguy never mentioned he had any need. Would I be better off setting the amp dials at about 3/4 full and have the soundguy cutting the faders on the main board? That is what I'm currently thinking. I know there might be a magic balance there somewhere between the amps and the live board, if so, how do you find it?
I've only run my PA system for another band once. But I can tell you that I did a better job that one night then our soundguy does for us after sitting behind the mixer for a year. To be fair to our soundguy, he is a fifth member of the band who only gets a half share. He sings a few songs for us, plays trombone on some songs, but his main duty is to run our sound. Since he does not have anything invested in the PA system, and we don't expect him to come to every practice, his half share every night is more than generous for his time with the group. Mind you, none of us make big bucks at these gigs, so half of \"not much\" is, well, not much. But he has a good time, drinks our beer tickets, and gets to talk to the girls while we are there up on stage. So he's happy in that respect. And all us band members like him personally and want to keep him in the band.
But, as you can imagine, after our last gig, our lead singer wants our soundguy to either improve his performance on the board, or be replaced. Any help you guys can offer will be useful. I have some ideas, but not much experience behind the board. I'm open to all comments and suggestions. Thanks in advance.
As it happened, at our last gig, our lead singer's voice gave out on him in the last set. We found out - from our soundguy - that he had intentionally turned down the vocal monitor to \"make\" our lead singer sing stronger. That did not go over well with our lead singer, as you can imagine. After the set, I went over to the board and checked the settings. The lead vocal channel was actually set at about -3 to -5 dB.
If I was running the board, and needed more lead vocals, I'd just boost the slider on the track. I don't understand at all this idea of reducing the monitor level to make the singer sing louder, and then cutting the level on the channel fader for the mains!? In a large part, I think our soundguy's idea of reducing the monitor levels contributed to our lead singer losing his voice. (For those of you who have not read my previous post, this was an outside gig in 45 degree weather - it was cold. So we had a number of issues working against us.)
So here are some questions I have for you guys that run soundboards and maybe you can help.
First of all, I think the gain should be set on each channel so that the vocal/instrument does not clip. Second of all, if the gain is set properly, I was thinking that the channel fader can be boosted above 0 dB without causing distortion. Do I have this right? If not, how much can you boost a live channel before you get distortion?
Second question, I only had the power amps at about half way, which usually is more than enough for our small gigs. I had all kinds of headroom on the PA amps if needed. But the soundguy never mentioned he had any need. Would I be better off setting the amp dials at about 3/4 full and have the soundguy cutting the faders on the main board? That is what I'm currently thinking. I know there might be a magic balance there somewhere between the amps and the live board, if so, how do you find it?
I've only run my PA system for another band once. But I can tell you that I did a better job that one night then our soundguy does for us after sitting behind the mixer for a year. To be fair to our soundguy, he is a fifth member of the band who only gets a half share. He sings a few songs for us, plays trombone on some songs, but his main duty is to run our sound. Since he does not have anything invested in the PA system, and we don't expect him to come to every practice, his half share every night is more than generous for his time with the group. Mind you, none of us make big bucks at these gigs, so half of \"not much\" is, well, not much. But he has a good time, drinks our beer tickets, and gets to talk to the girls while we are there up on stage. So he's happy in that respect. And all us band members like him personally and want to keep him in the band.
But, as you can imagine, after our last gig, our lead singer wants our soundguy to either improve his performance on the board, or be replaced. Any help you guys can offer will be useful. I have some ideas, but not much experience behind the board. I'm open to all comments and suggestions. Thanks in advance.
Comments
What the sound guy did was WRONG! Yeah, that will make a vocalist oversing and strain their voice.
As for Channel fader, that only affects FOH on most boards. Most boards will have a separate monitor out control in the channel strip (aux). It is independent of the FOH. Other instances, there will be a fixed monitor board or submixer. Using inserts off the main board or other fixed sends, the stage mon's, side fills, IEM's, etc can all be set for each player if it's done right.
Channel input trim or gain controls should be set so the clip indicator blinks barely and then just back it off. You want enough signal there. In other cases there should be some type of limiter also routed to the channel strip. Those are also controlled in each channel strip via aux. Many boards only allow two controls for aux and 2 aux efx or a pair of internal efx (if on the board).
Higher end boards and even the big boards from Behringer provide more aux ch for added monitor/aux flexibility. In other cases you can use subgroup outs and send those to an independent mixer or if that person has their own powered speaker, they can then control their own monitor amt and in some cases even provide simple effects without adding the same send with effects to other vocalists that may not want that.
Channel fader amt is set to a level based on the amt of input signal available and any additional sends from outboard effects. 0 is pretty much the happy point, but if you add compression or high efx sends you may have to back off some.
Your sound guy should be prepared for the changes musicians make after and within the first few songs. Drummers and Bassists will be the first usually to start playing more dynamically, so after the initial sound check, the wait, then starting back up, players might relax or get over powered and that might get those input clip lights flickering more. If the players are more relaxed, then levels might drop, so you have to careful of what levels are dropping on each channel strip before thinking \"its weaker\" and nudge the house master faders. For larger crowds, areas where the mix becomes absorbed more just from bodies, adding a slight amt of reverb on the mains can actually help more than cranking the FOH. It's all about experimenting with what works in what venue. Placement of the FOH speakers, is the stage elevated, all those things come into play.
My point is: the soundman is NOT a member of the band and hence should NOT be making decisions about who should perform in what manner.
Even an idjut like me knows that a vocalist MUST MUST MUST be able to hear himself sing - as well as hear the band playing - in order to stay on key and in balance/timing with what's being played.
Being the harda$$ hothead I am, if my soundman pulled something like turning down the mon's to \"make the vocalist sing louder\"...well, if I was in a gentle mood I'd stick a 16-ch snake up his booty. If I wasn't, they'd find parts of him duct-taped to the back of the road cases.
The advantage of having a hand picked sound guy is he eventually learns you songs, interactivity, and can be a huge support figure as you move forward. If he listens and is likable, you are already ahead.
If you use your full PA at rehearsals, might be a good idea or at least I would encourage him to attend in the meantime just to familiarize himself with what is going on.
I know that the channel fader only affects FOH speakers on my board. Maybe I did not make that clear. The monitor levels are set by knobs on each channel strip and there are 4 master level knobs for each monitor group. We only use the two no-effects monitor channels and leave the two effects monitor channels unused.
I'm glad to hear confirmation that what our soundguy did was wrong. It confirms everything I was thinking. Again, what he did was turn down the monitor knob on the lead singer's channel strip, which reduced his vocals in the monitor, to \"make\" the singer sing \"louder/better\" so he could hear himself in the monitor, and then he turned down the channel fader for the FOH mix to balance out the lead singer singing louder. Sounds like a catch 22 trap designed to blow out the singers voice - which it did.
Our soundguy is our fifth member of the band, and he only get's half a share. He sings a few songs for us and plays trombone on a few others. He is a talented musician in that respect, and he does add a certain value to the band, but it's not worth a full share of the gig money. In order to justify his \"position\", we actually pay him to run my sound board at the gigs. It's an arrangement that works well for both the band, and for our soundguy/fifth member, except when he screws up on the board. And he got himself in trouble at the last gig trying to control the lead singer from the board. At one level, I know he meant well. But at our level, he should have known better not to be playing games with us on stage.
We all like him personally, and I think we will try to work through this problem and re-train him on the board. The problem is that he has been behind the board for about a year now and really has not picked up on how to run it properly yet. Yes, he's not a professional soundguy, but still, he seems a bit slow, or inattentive, to running the board professionally.
I've had time to talk to all the other members in the group and we have discussed our expectations of him on the board. Mainly, we just want him behind the board when we are on stage in case of feedback or other problems. Also, he needs to protect the board from wandering drunks, which he can't do if he is off chasing tail during the set. As far as the mix, we just ask that he do the best he can and let us know if something does not sound right out front.
I've listened to other bands run by \"professional\" soundguys who have all their own PA equipment and charge (around here) a full share with the band members. I was not impressed by two of the guys here who do this as a business. I know that laying down a mix is a matter of taste, but both of the guys I listened to here laid heavy in the guitars/drums and the vocals were really weak. For me, I like the vocals out front, in your face, and the music mixed in to back it up. I can't see us losing our current soundguy for either of those \"professionals\" who, IMHO, don't run their boards any better and charge a whole lot more up front. So, really, our best option is to try to work with what we have.
Well, in our case, he is a half-member of the band but I do agree that he should not be making decisions about who should perform in what manner. Also agree with your other points and feelings about the issue.
If an independent \"professional\" soundguy had been hired for his equipment and sound support, and if he pulled a stunt like that on us, he would have been fired on the spot. No doubt. It's just more complicated than that with our arrangement with our soundguy/fifth member.
I was standing next to our singer and heard his voice go out in the middle of the song. So I stepped up to the mic and sang with him to get us out of the song. Then we quickly went off the set list and played a couple songs where he did not have to sing - and that brought us to the end of the night. I know lots of lead singers have big egos, our's does not. But losing your voice because the soundguy was turning down your monitors is enough to make anyone upset. All things considered, I think our soundguy/fifth member is lucky he still has his rear end intact.
It's tough when a band member has a bad night. It's harder when excessive drinking is involved and becomes a habit. And stupid mistakes like this rank right up there on that scale. I really work with a great bunch of guys in our current lineup. This issue had all the potential for a full blown fight and would have been just that with other musicians I have worked with in the past. But I'm hoping that some retraining and reaffirming expectations of his sound board duties will get us over this hump. In the end, it's only rock 'n' roll and we are just a decent cover band having fun playing out a few times a month. We can't take ourselves too seriously.....
Anyway, our soundguy walked out on us before the gig started without saying a word to us. Just up and left. I ended up setting up the PA and mixer by myself. Fortunately, my brother-in-law was at the gig last night and we \"hired\" him to fill in at the board for the night. Honestly, my brother-in-law's first night out on the board with about 10 minutes training on my mixer, he did a much better job than our \"former\" soundguy ever did after working the board for over a year.
I feel bad about the whole issue. Our \"former\" soundguy is a personal friend to both me and other band members. His excessive drinking was a problem for him, and it started negatively affecting the band. Instead of manning the board, he would be off to the bar getting more drinks. A few nights he got so drunk that he completely messed up on his lyrics (he sang 3 songs for us). His excessive drinking has been an issue more and more recently and we have talked to him about it on more than one occassion even prior to the latest issues.
As a band, we just wanted him to change a few things in his performance on the board and keep his drinking to a reasonable amount before and during the gigs. Since he never told us what he was thinking or feeling, and just walked out on us without saying a word, we have no idea what's going on in his head. Nobody wanted him to leave the band, but now it's tough to keep him. Even if he was thinking about quitting - for whatever reasons - we felt that he should have stayed with the band until the end of the gig and then told us that he was not coming back. As it is, by walking out on us without a word, he has burned some bridges with us if he ever wants to come back.
It's a loss, and a shame. But the band had a great night last night without him. I've learned long ago that anyone can be replaced in a band, so you need to pull your own weight and bring your best effort to the gigs. If you have a bad night, the band stands with you. If your bad night is the result of bad habits, like excessive drinking, and it becomes a pattern, you will lose the support of your bandmates over time. People make personal choices in their lives, and if that conflicts with the goals of the band, then it's time to change something. I'm not losing sleep over this issue, but I do feel bad that a good friend has left the band. I'm sure some of you guys have had the same type of experience.
I'm sorry to hear you had a bad parting with someone you clearly considered a friend.
But I'd like to point out a few things you said yourself:
For one, NO ONE is irreplaceable in a band, least of all a tech (e.g. soundman). The loss to you/the band is the parting of a friend, not a soundman.
It's clear that, whatever his abilities are/were, they were muddled by his alcohol problem and compounded by his lack of commitment to his role, preferring instead to have drinks and troll the bar. HIS choice, not any of yours.
I'm glad you've got a good 'head' about this. I' not in your shooz, but if I were, I'd want a band project to be as much fun and as little pain/drama as possible. This guy, despite his contributions, was causing you problems, as you've mentioned in the past with the drinking drummer and the ego-tripping lead git'rist.
You and the guys are doing the right thing by shedding dead weight and problem members and keeping the project running well and benefitting everyone.
Except me, of course...not one of you slobs has hooked me up with a hott groupie or drunk floozie yet. I'm very disappointed. :P
I just left a message for him on his answering machine - he's not picking up his phone - and basically said that the band feels he does not really want the responsibility and headache of running sound for us, so we are looking for someone else to take over that paid headache. However, we still value him as a friend and musician and would welcome him as part of our band if he still wants to play his trombone and sing a few songs with us at our gigs. He can still be a member of the band in that capacity, but his share of the money would be going to our new soundguy.
He never was in the band for the money - none of us get rich gigging once or twice a month - so maybe an unpaid, no responsibility, just show up and have fun with the band position would be better for him anyway. That way he can still drink whenever and wherever he wants, can still chase the skirts if he wants, can still be part of the band, but not have to be responsible for our sound support.
Well, I hope he thinks about it and calls us back when he is ready. So far, like I said, he's not picking up the phone. Some things just need time to rest....