No More Mr. Nice Guy....
So my little cover band is playing at a benefit gig last night for our local women's Roller Derby team. Shredd would have liked that gig. There were some women there that were total knockouts, and other women on the team that could totally knock you out (some big girls). We brought our up tempo songs and people were out there dancing and having a good time. Anyway, we played for just one set and cleared the stage for the next group.
I saw a fellow musician from another band out in the audience, so during the break between bands, I went over to talk to him and ask him how his band's new lineup is working out and if they will be out playing soon. Just trying to be nice. Well, he says to me, that they are working on all original songs because they don't want to be a F....ing cover band playing S..t music. OK. I'm taking that just a little personal about now. So I politely change the topic and leave soon thereafter.
Upon reflection today, I think I maybe should have just fired back at him with both barrels and told him that I've heard his originals and maybe that is why they can't get a paying gig anywhere. Most of his original songs suck, really, and they can stay in the practice room for another 6 months perfecting their original songs and they will still come up short if they ever get a paying gig. What a butt wipe. I'm all for guys writing original music and performing their original work, but don't try to tell me that their original music is better than us cover bands playing great original music written by some great bands. Just because it's your original music doesn't make the song automatically better than a cover tune.
Anyway, I was put off by his remarks and superior attitude. He does not have the talent to go with it, either in songwriting or performing. In fact, he joined a perfectly good power trio cover band that was playing out making money, and then started injecting his \"originals\" into the set lists. The band quickly went downhill and the lead guitarist/singer quit the band. Since then, the remaining members have reformed, with a new name, and have been \"working\" on his original songs in the practice room for about the past 6 months.
Oh well. I was asked to fill in on bass for the last band, another cover band, and actually pulled it off. Not my best performance, but considering I was learning the songs as we played them, I did OK. Anyway, the lead singer of the band really thanked me for helping them out and thought I did a great job for him. We didn't suck. In fact, we had the dance floor hopping. Not bad for a hack bass player from a lowly cover band background. I was asked, stepped up, and did the job. BTW, nobody asked this other musician to come up and perform a song or two. Says something to me right there......
Just wondering if any of you guys have come accros this attitude of \"original\" artists trying to put down the cover bands that are actually out there working and making money. Or maybe you are an \"original\" artist and you do feel that cover bands are beneath you. I don't know. FYI, our lead guitarist is also a solo artist with all original songs. He puts food on the table playing in our little cover band because it's just really hard to sell his original music. I'm sure he would rather be performing his original music all the time, but he is just thankful that our cover band gets the paying gigs.
Any thoughts?
I saw a fellow musician from another band out in the audience, so during the break between bands, I went over to talk to him and ask him how his band's new lineup is working out and if they will be out playing soon. Just trying to be nice. Well, he says to me, that they are working on all original songs because they don't want to be a F....ing cover band playing S..t music. OK. I'm taking that just a little personal about now. So I politely change the topic and leave soon thereafter.
Upon reflection today, I think I maybe should have just fired back at him with both barrels and told him that I've heard his originals and maybe that is why they can't get a paying gig anywhere. Most of his original songs suck, really, and they can stay in the practice room for another 6 months perfecting their original songs and they will still come up short if they ever get a paying gig. What a butt wipe. I'm all for guys writing original music and performing their original work, but don't try to tell me that their original music is better than us cover bands playing great original music written by some great bands. Just because it's your original music doesn't make the song automatically better than a cover tune.
Anyway, I was put off by his remarks and superior attitude. He does not have the talent to go with it, either in songwriting or performing. In fact, he joined a perfectly good power trio cover band that was playing out making money, and then started injecting his \"originals\" into the set lists. The band quickly went downhill and the lead guitarist/singer quit the band. Since then, the remaining members have reformed, with a new name, and have been \"working\" on his original songs in the practice room for about the past 6 months.
Oh well. I was asked to fill in on bass for the last band, another cover band, and actually pulled it off. Not my best performance, but considering I was learning the songs as we played them, I did OK. Anyway, the lead singer of the band really thanked me for helping them out and thought I did a great job for him. We didn't suck. In fact, we had the dance floor hopping. Not bad for a hack bass player from a lowly cover band background. I was asked, stepped up, and did the job. BTW, nobody asked this other musician to come up and perform a song or two. Says something to me right there......
Just wondering if any of you guys have come accros this attitude of \"original\" artists trying to put down the cover bands that are actually out there working and making money. Or maybe you are an \"original\" artist and you do feel that cover bands are beneath you. I don't know. FYI, our lead guitarist is also a solo artist with all original songs. He puts food on the table playing in our little cover band because it's just really hard to sell his original music. I'm sure he would rather be performing his original music all the time, but he is just thankful that our cover band gets the paying gigs.
Any thoughts?
Comments
Obviously an elitist...an you hit it RIGHT on the head when you suggested that they don't get gigs 'cuz they focus exclusively on originals. Who do they think they are, YES?
Point is, as if you need it pointed out, that original material has to be fantastic and fantastically performed to rate paying gigs...whereas cover music, if even decently played, is using the material of established, talented, and successful bands/musicians.
And you clearly took the high road with this dooshbag by not taking the bait from his views on cover bands and cover music. Good for you.
I still say the most enjoyable part of the story is this self-impressed tool considering himself superior to us lame cover players.
Now...I enjoy creating original stuff as much as anyone - see my SoundClick site in my signature - but I'd never delude myself into thinking it's got more appeal than a good set of danceable rockin' tunes that brilliant and/or successful musicians have written. Over the years I've created two CD's that were 90% original material, and they've found their way into the hands of exactly FOUR people. :oops:
So...as I'm sure you've done - write this guy and his attitude off as self-delusional and elitist and keep doing what you've been telling us about for so long - have fun, make money, and build something that succeeds and continues. 8)
As for myself, I'm with a group of guys that just has fun playing some great cover music for crowds that like to have a good time. In the meantime, I have been become a much better player and the gig money has more than supported all my musical gear upgrades. I don't regret a single minute up there on stage playing some of my favorite songs. I used to do it for free, now I'm getting paid. What could be better than that?
BTW, this past Friday night we had a really good house at the venue we played at. There were a couple other bands playing in town that night and we pulled almost everyone to our venue. So, personally, that felt good. Yeah, we are a cover band, but we don't suck and people that come to our shows usually have a good time.
I know there are a lot of guys on the forum here that are in cover bands. Just wondering if anyone has copped that attitude to you or yours about playing cover music and how you dealt with the issue. Well, I took the high road the other night, but I could really see taking the other path, too.
Oh yeah, Shredd, I was thinking of you when those young roller derby girls were out there at the benefit concert. You would have had a good time that night. Plus, they also had a costume contest and some of those girls were wearing short mini dresses and high heels. Looked pretty good from my vantage point up on stage.
Yeah, I'm with ya bud. You've got the whole package - you're in a fun band with good guys playing fun toons for money. It's a (\"my\") dream come true...the only thing I'd want as well is to have hordes of adoring groupies fighting over me. 'Til I was married, of course... :P
Of course. And as an old married guy, I'd rather have some hard working roadies unpacking and packing all our gear. Love playing the music, but the setup and take down add another 3 hours to the night. After a double weekend, it would be nice to have someone else take down the equipment and load the van for us while we chill out. Ain't gonna happen, but it's a nice thought.
...I don't see how it's in any way your responsibility to help him out with advice, guidance, or personal experience.
In the long run: if you're trying to have a steady income from music, stick to covers. Most likely, you won't be booking huge venues, and doubtfully will go national (unless you're a specialty, like The Machine, etc) but you can maintain.
If you're trying to play larger venues, and hoping to get signed and make big money, you'll need to lean towards originals. But to do that, you need the appropriate business model and marketing strategy, as well as a certain image. And you will probably still play a cover song here and there.
So again, people who have a view of the music world from 20 years ago are living a fantasy. Don't let their righteous attitude affect you, and don't waste your emotional energy in retaliation.
20 years later, your belly is hanging over your belt, and you have to wear that same stage outfit,
and do that same stinkin' song, and your groupies look like circus freaks.
Your big venues are Fruit Festivals or an Indian Casino.
Great advice. It's hard not to take it personally when you just got off stage playing cover songs, but I'm sure this guy was not even thinking about how he was coming off. Probably didn't care. Might be a bit of sour grapes along with it because he had joined a good working cover band and his mix in the band (with his originals) broke it up. And know this as a fact because I talked to their former lead guitarist/lead singer and he told me flat out that he was not interested in doing those originals songs which he felt were subpar. He wanted to stick with his classic cover songs that he enjoyed playing and he felt the band being pushed in another direction. So they parted ways. Since the, the remaining members have been back in the practice room for over 6 months working on their originals. Like I said, they might be there for another 6 months and still not have a paying gig on the books.
And you are right, it's not worth wasting my emotional energy in retaliation on that guy. It would probably make me look as bad as he comes off. I took the high road that night, and maybe it's best to leave it at that. Sometimes that is just the harder road to travel.
At any rate, as I mentioned, I was asked to fill in for the bass player from the other band. So, at least my fellow musicians think enough of me to ask. I stepped up and helped them out. Not my best performace, but considering I was learning the songs on the fly, I got through the night and the crowd never knew I was totally pulling things out of my backend just trying to get through the songs. From the audience perspective, we sounded pretty good. They were out there dancing and having fun. I was just doing my part to keep it real down low.
Maybe you got the cart before the horse. Our soundguy in my band gets half a share (he runs my PA system, not his), but he doesn't care because he gets full share of band drink tickets and he spends a good half of the night mixing with the crowd and talking up the pretty girls. In other words, he would work for free just because he gets a chance to be with the band, get free drinks, and also has the freedom to mix with the women all night long. He also does not have the responsibility to learn new songs, show up for every practice session, etc.... So is really happy with his position the way it is.
Maybe if you got yourself out there a bit more, you would find that pretty girl with long hair who does like you. BTW, are you still out there playing and singing on jam nights?
Actually, other than having a one hit wonder (or any hits), I am that 20 years later and the belly is hanging over my belt. And as far as the band, playing a Fruit Festival or an Indian Casino would be a bigger event for us in our area. But we live in a \"small\" rural town of about 13,000. No regular music event, or venue, around here attracks more than a couple hundred people at most.
But, yeah, I think it would be hard to have had one big hit and then be forced to play that every gig night for the next 20 years trying to reclaim past fortune. Having said that, I think it would be great just to be part of a group that even managed to have one big hit......
But yeah, I've been going to a local open mic weekly, and going over pretty good. I'm pleased, since I am far - FAR - from the elite musicians around here. No response from the chix yet, though. :evil:
I've learned to shrug all the garbage off. We are covered or can be covered in trash all day long. It depends how much you want the garbage to stick or simply fall off that matters more. I hear many musicians (especially guitarists) trash other musicians all the time. If you play to those guys instead of the patrons, you are going to find yourself struggling for gigs as well as getting past any limitations your ego fires up!
Original groups find themselves in a tough sell, and many (as much as they say would never happen) find themselves patterning other successful groups. Original music and lyrics can be easy to memorize and become tightened much faster.
Cover groups require experienced players with somewhat less than limited territory in genre/style/influences. You have to become diverse and not stuck to one style and even cover some unfamiliar and even uncomfortable territory as a player.
Jazz is mostly covers. They're called \"Standards\". (Satin Doll, Misty, Cherokee, etc..)..It's hard enough to get a gig doing standards, much less some original fusion stuff..
Exactly, which is why I enjoy playing in a cover band. I have learned to play many different genres over the past three years, mostly songs that I like, but also some songs that I don't personally care for. Our current lead guitarist is very good at working covers. He is able to listen to the original recording and mimic the style and feel of the music and be true to the song. Our former lead guitarist, a great guy and a very talented 80's shredder, forced his particular 80's style into every song. I'm all for sweep picking, but not for every song from metal to country!
My cover band is working hard to learn all the little nuances of the original song(s) and duplicate it as faithfully as possible. We work hard at learning all the signature licks and hooks note for note. If there are starts and stops in the original recording, we work on them to get them tight for our shows. I've seen lots of other bands play through those little things, but when we can nail those nuances, it does make a difference and some people notice.
Thank you. And it's not like he had to pay anything to attend the benefit. Maybe his attitude is just a cover up for his true feelings about his new \"original\" band that cannot get out of the practice room and book a paying gig anymore. Maybe he is feeling a little pressure from the other guys who used to be out there working covers, having fun, and getting paid. I know how a dry spell in the bookings can put a lot of pressure on the bandmates.
Are you really upset that you're not playing your own tunes? Are you embarrassed that you are playing covers?[/list:u] If I asked myself these questions, I would say that I would love to play my own tunes, but I am not upset that we're not and no, I am not embarrassed to play cover tunes. It gives me an avenue to gain popularity and possibly mix my own tunes in the set in the future. It may also give me a following that would love to hear something that we wrote ourselves.
I'm not upset, or embarrassd, that we are playing covers. That is what we do by choice. What bothered me is that I tried to pick up a pleasant conversation with a fellow musician and show a little interest, and support for his band. Instead, what I got from him was a direct slam about cover bands and our music. It was his \"superior\" attitude that turned me off. An attitude he had no right to pull out of his butt. He has not earned any \"attitude\" rights, if that makes sense.
I know all the other guys in his band, and not one of them would ever had copped an attitude like that. In fact, I have played with their bass player before, and our drummer also drums for that band. So I know all those guys pretty well. It bothers me that this new guy joined a perfectly good working band and brought it down. A band that I personally enjoyed going out to watch. It bothers me that my friends are working with this guy that has such a crap attitude. It's going to hurt their chances to ever get out of the practice room and book those gigs. What bothers me is that a fellow musician would cop such an attitude. I would like to think that we are above that. But I guess musicians are just like anybody else, you have some good guys in the business and others with attitudes that are just passing through.....
I'm not losing sleep over this issue. I took the high road and did not get down to his level. But part of me wonders if I should have attempted to readjust his crap attitude not only for his benefit, but also for the other guys in the band that I know well. I think the consensus of the guys on the forum is that it would not have made any difference and I was right to have taken the high road. I can live with that.
In the meantime, my band is working up some new cover songs for our next paid gig, and they are still practicing his \"originals\" in the practice room for who knows how much longer. I hope, for the sake of my other friends, that they get out of the practice room and start gigging again. But this new guy and his attitude is not helping them out at all and is responsible for holding them back.
BTW, most of the musicians around here are great guys and I'm proud to know them and to play music with them. So this one guy is really an exception. Musicians with poor attitudes don't seem to last very long around here. Don't know what it is like anywhere else. Suspect it's the same no matter where you go.
Me too. I used to be in an original Blues band. Our lead singer had lots of original songs he had written. He had a few songs that were good, a number that were OK, and we filled the rest of the night with covers. We could not make the band work and we ended up splitting up after a couple of shows. Not so much a problem with the music as it was with the personalities of the various bandmates.
But since I had not written the originals, it was all the same for me playing classic covers or our singers original songs. I just enjoy playing good songs. If I get paid, it's just a bonus.
It makes perfect sense. My point was that you shouldn't let a-holes get to you, and don't be surprised that there are a-holes in all aspects of the world.
Maybe you should think of it from another angle and wonder if he is actually threatened by you. He's probably insecure in his current gig, that he tries to justify his own existence by trying to dump on other guitarists are doing.
That would be my guess.....either that or he's simply an a-hole.
I've known this guy for over 3 years. I come across him every once in a while. Unfortunately, he puts almost everyone off with his attitude.
I first met him at an open jam. He fancies himself as a lead guitarist, but he is not all that talented. Anyway, first night I knew him, he was trying to play lead solos over the singer. You can imagine how well that went over.
The second time I played with him at an open jam, there were 3 lead guitarists and everyone was taking a round on the solos - except him. He turned up his amp and played over all the other guitarists - which really pissed off the other guitarists there that night.
The last time I was at an open jam with him, about 2+ years ago, I was playing bass, a good friend of mine was playing drums, and he was there on guitar and singing. OK, so we start doing one of his originals. The drummer and I get a good groove going and starting to feel like something is going on. Halfway through the song, this guy up and quits, says he's not feeling the song, and walks off. The drummer and I look at each other, shrug our shoulders, and come up with a quick ending to the song.
Now I can understand someone being particular sensitive about their original material. And if the music on stage does not sound like the song in their head, well, maybe that's a disappointment for the writer. However, I don't think it shows much class to bring an original to an open jam session and expect other musicians to read your mind and play the song the way it is in your head. There were people out there listening to us play, and they, of course, did not understand why this guy just up and left. Either don't bring your original material to a jam session, or be open to the direction other musicians might take your song. Whatever you decide, at least play the song out to the end.
Well, that's my history with this guy. But currently he is working with a bunch of my friends in another band and I had hoped that he had matured some since I last saw and talked to him. The other guys in the band are really great people. But it appears that their influence has not rubbed off on him yet. He is still the same guy.
Again, I'm not losing sleep over this guy. I was just thinking aloud on this thread that it might have been better for me to attempt to readjust this guy's attitude when I had the chance. He is about 15 years younger than me, has more attitude than talent, and is burning bridges with other musicians along the way. I guess he is well on his way to a solo non-career. In the end, I decided that anything I would have said would have been wasted on him anyway. So I ended up taking the high road and left the conversation with him on a pleasant note.
Done badly...
Magnificent version
Search youtube for Satin Doll and you'll find 1000's of versions. Tell you what Gtaus. Here's the changes.
http://www.ralphpatt.com/VB/s2.html
Here's the backer..
http://www.ralphpatt.com/Backing tracks/Satin Doll 120.mp3
Work with the changes. Next time you see your buddy.. Whip them on him and see his reaction...LOL..Don't forget this is a simple jazz cover..(Standard)..
Ego's a good thing, but a lot of times it's used to cover up inadequacies..
You know, at an open jam, nobody that comes there is expecting to hear perfectly played songs by a super tight band. It's not going to happen that way. But to see someone walk off in the middle of a song, well, that's just beneath anybody's standards. Most patrons of open mic nights and open jams know that they might see some rough performances. But if you at least try and make it through the song, most people are polite and will appreciate the effort. Most musicians there are working on their skills and hope to improve their craft in some manner.
It's been a number of years since I attended the open mic/jam nights around here. Now that I am in a band, I much prefer working with the guys in practice to tighten up our music. I miss the challenge of open jams, but I like playing with a purpose in a tight band much better. Also, even on a bad night, my band's practice sessions are much better than what I can play out at an open jam.
I'm thinking about hitting the open jam scene again just to practice some genres of music that my band does not play, but it's no longer a big drive for me. I spent a good year, every Friday night, at a local jam bar working on my chops. That was valuable experience and I don't regret it. But actually being in a working band has been much more rewarding for me personally.
Plus, if we ever muck up a song on stage, we still manage to work through it and nobody walks off stage. Speaking of which, at our last gig, our lead singer got lost in the lyrics of a song that we have been playing for over 2 years. I don't know what happened to him. But he missed the bridge, solo, etc... and went off to other parts of the song in the wrong order. It could have been a disaster for us in earlier days. As it was, the lead guitarist, drummer, and I looked at each other and followed the singer down his new path. We made it through the song, thankfully, and nailed the next song.
After the set, the lead guitarist (our most experienced musician) said that was certainly an interesting arrangement of the song, but he felt great that the band was able to follow the lead singer and help him get through the song. In the end, I doubt if anyone in the crowd even noticed the hiccups although we on stage knew we having a heck of a time holding it together. Nobody got upset, nobody walked off stage, and we came back with the next song and nailed it to the wall.
Personally, I felt great that I was able to hold it together and follow the lead singer on the fly. A few years ago, I would have been a train wreck if that had happened in that song. It's one thing to play the song correctly when everything is working as planned, it's a completely other thing to play well when everything is falling apart in the song. I'm still a hack bass player, but at least I can take a few more whacks and keep it going. And, good or bad performance on a song, I don't quit and walk off the stage.
Love that mask the guy is wearing on the violin video. I guess I'd cover my face too if I played that poorly! I know he says he was on only day 9 of learning to play violin, but sometimes these guys are just making spoof videos for the fun of it. I know a few people who play violin, and it takes more than 9 days just to learn how to properly hold the violin and play a decent note. So I'm thinking that was a joke video.
Anyway, thanks for the links. Jazz is not my bag, cat, but I downloaded the backing track and maybe someday I'll mess around with it. I am looking at a book of playing bass in different genres, and I know there is a section there for jazz. So maybe when I get to that point, the backing track will come in handy.