What would YOU do???
OK, here's the short version: my Taylor T5 Koa - a nearly $3000 guitar - has such severe intonation/tuning problems that it's utterly unplayable.
After much discussion with a local luthier, and with the Taylor factory people, no one has any real answers and the only thing the Taylor people suggest is that the guitar is dried out from my living environment (Colorado Rockies, RH typically 20% :shock: ).
I keep the thing in it's case at all times, and have a daily-moistened Dampit in the case, which indicates that the RH is about 40%, which should be acceptable for a git'r.
Yet the thing has such severe tuning/intonation issues, it's essentially a very attractive $3000 paperweight. :evil:
SO. Would you:
After much discussion with a local luthier, and with the Taylor factory people, no one has any real answers and the only thing the Taylor people suggest is that the guitar is dried out from my living environment (Colorado Rockies, RH typically 20% :shock: ).
I keep the thing in it's case at all times, and have a daily-moistened Dampit in the case, which indicates that the RH is about 40%, which should be acceptable for a git'r.
Yet the thing has such severe tuning/intonation issues, it's essentially a very attractive $3000 paperweight. :evil:
SO. Would you:
-
keep it until some day that I might live in a place with more normal climate, and then have it set up;
sell it;
or send it to Taylor and pay shipping both ways and their obscene repair prices to humidify and setup the guitar
[/list:u]Not surprisingly, I'm so frustrated that I'm ready to use it for kindling. I just never spent $3000 to start a fire before. :shock:
Comments
I have had old guitars brought in that have been inherited ....only for the \"inheritor\" to find an old guitar that has a neck like a question mark. :x The fact that it spent decades in a funky basement mean nothing other than it prematurely aged and made the wood do what has always wanted.....go crooked.
Yes humidity has much to do about this but altitude plays a big part too.Thats why guitars freak out in non native climates for that wood.Go to Hawaii for 6 months .....get a long needed tan on those chicken legs :P ...and most likely the guitar will be playable again on its own.If I remember correctly.....the finish is VERY thin on those guitars and that means it is many times more susceptible to drastic changes in drastic climates.You would of been better suited with a guitar made from canadian woods.Sure it isn't as pretty as the KOA but you most likely would not be going through what you are.
Selling it in that condition is a kharma I wouldn't want on me....... :shock:
Keeping it will only put you in the poor house having the issues fixed every couple of years
personally,I would find someone you trust (actual friend or relative) that lives in a more appropriate climate in the states like Georgia,Virginias,Carolinas........send them the guitar and let the wood \"un-freak\"........when it improves,have it get a proper fret mill by a qualified accoustic specialist for about $200-$300 and get it on EBAY ASAP!
I've never had a $3000 guitar, so I don't know what I would do if I were in your shoes. It must be heartbreaking. Let us know what you decide to do.
g is right...Taylor is TOTally s*!*!*g the bed on this one. They have this ridiculous \"repair menu\" structure that prices certain groups of services at certain fees; but if you need a combination of work, you have to pay for all of them.
For example - much as I'd love to think a \"set-up\" would solve the problems - a service that comes at one price - I may also need my neck reset or angle-checked - part of a whole different \"service pack\" I'd have to pay for. And if either the nut or saddle or both needed replacing, that's ANOTHER service to pay for. It could get really expensive.
The irony is that what cyclonic said is exactly right - it's likely the climate I live in that's wreaking havoc with this thing. If I sent it to someone in Carolinas or Ohio or such, it'd probably be perfectly fine.
Ironically, the Taylor guys told me that they have T5's all over the world, including Colorado; and no problems. And of course, since it can't be the guitar, it has to be ME and how I'm taking care of it. :evil:
This is why I'm not concerned karmically about selling it...I know that essentially, there's nothing wrong with the git'r that the right environment won't resolve.
The reason I asked if I should set it aside is against the possibility that someday down the road I might live in a more normal climate, and I'd really want to have the guitar then.
But who knows if it'd still need expensive setup/repairs? I just think a git'r, even a fine-wood acoustic, shouldn't be such a headache. ESPECIALLY a fine instrument like a Taylor. :evil:
I have 3 people that I deal with in the Denver-Ft Collins region and they have issues with their stuff .Luthiers and guitar companies I know that build handmades in Cali always have to deal with pesky issues from customers in the deep south usa.Especially the high end models for jazz and metal players that like .005\" string height at the first fret and .050\" string height at the 24th fret............they're pushing the \"buzz\" envelope and very few luthiers can do that successfully and it takes a bit of knowledge just for the owner to maintain it because its the musical equivalent of a 1000hp blown prostreet mustang with 32 inch mickey thompsons on the back.Top end instruments are just as hit and miss and sadly the arrogance of Taylor is uncalled for.They should just fix it once to satisfy the customer and prove that the guitar was NOT built on a bad day.....
But for Taylor to basically snub their noses at this one and not want to even look at it without my forking out more dough than I even have right now, is not very user-friendly. :evil:
if they show up at NAMM........I'll ask them
post some pics with the issues and I'll put them on my laptop for reference when I go.
I love busting ballz :twisted:
Here's the thing: the problem isn't anything you can see, it's in what you hear.
I've examined the nut and saddle extremely closely, even with a magnifying glass that could fry a medium-sized cat. :shock:
They show absolutely no sign of wear, modification/hacking, nor does the bridge show any signs of ever having been moved. The truss rod bullet is clean.
So - if you can think of any kind of pic that would help, lemme know and I'll take it and send it to you.
Honestly, the git'r looks as good as the day it was built. It plays fine. It just sounds like it was tuned by a deaf guy.
If there's anything you can tell them: it's pretty clearly an intonation issue. If you tune each string, an open E sounds fine, an open A sounds bad, an open D makes you want to gouge your ears out with a pencil. If you correct the tuning to correct the sound of D or A or whatever, then E or C sound awful. Sound familiar?? :?
Bar chords, especially up the neck, seem to sound fine. Also indicates intonation.
Anyway...they have certainly earned a ball-busting. They've treated me pretty poorly, considering the reputation their instruments have, how much they cost, and the caliber of company they're supposed to be. Go to town. 8)
look at the nut grooves with the strings out.......does it look like the apex is on the fretboard side with out question????I have seen poorly angled nut slots cause intonation issues and mysterious sitar noises.
Heck I thought the neck went berserk and needed a new fret mill
Personally I would strobe the thing from one end to the other and figure out if the bridge was mounted in the right spot and the fretboard was scaled correctly.I have seen \"F\" ups like that on all price ranges of instruments.
sounds to me like they think your just being anal about it and have discarded you as a nut.You need a qualified shop to stand behind your suspicions....there should be a couple of good ones around you.
So I did that - looked at each slot with that string pulled, with a huge magnifying glass, looking for any sign of \"modification\". But it looks clean as a whistle, and of course being bone would be pretty unlikely to just wear.
But yeah...as hard as I tried to be nice, I suspect the Taylor guys are not interested in hearing about a Taylor that isn't great and needs work. So...that's one of the reasons I have this thread going: if I'm going to keep this git'r, I need to decide whether to have Taylor work on it (seems like factory work is always a good idea, especially on an unusual design like a T5), or find a really good luthier/shop to work on it (which would mean holding on to the git'r for an undeterminate time, since I live 50 miles west of Central Nowhere, USA...
personally I'm just not a fan of the bone bridge saddle......just because it worked great one day with a certain set of strings and intonated right doesn't mean that it will work for all and not everyone likes the same strings.
just a damned shame........all the way around
a beautiful guitar and for the price it should play itself!
I will ask them if I see them
IMHO, it's so hard to speculate, but the more info you can give, the better we can offer genius advice. Even then, the only real way to figure this out, is to see both you and the guitar.
I agree with whats been said so far. My first suspicion isn't so much the wood, or humidity, unless you see some obvious symptoms, and you've said you've even had a luthier look at it. I also know you to be very detail oriented, and would recognize wet or dry damage.
If I were to suspect humidity problems, it's likely wet. I'm curious what RH you keep this at? 40-50% is ideal. (45% perfect) This guitar stays indoors all year...right? I mean, it's normally in a controlled environment...regardless of high altitude or low humidity.
Even here in N.Michigan... it's 80% in the summer, and 20% in the winter...and I have to adjust all my truss rods twice a year.
I can see how Taylor guys will lament Colorado as hard on the guitar, but it's not like you are living in a teepee.
Okay...here is where I'll need to charge you my online fee of 5 cents for my expert advice. Since you are a top 10 poster here...you do still get the 10% discount.
I think the problem is you have dog ears...man.
But wait...there's more....
are you using the factory strings? Elixirs? Changing to another brand or gauge, or even tuning can make a big dif...as well as how you play. You are a big guy... do you mash those strings? You can make a note sharp or flat by just how you finger.
I don't know these guitars, but aren't they more like an acoustic? It's possible the bridge isn't set perfect to this guitars sweet spot? These are somewhat hand made, but they are more computer production. I agree with Taylor that this Koa should perform well anywhere if given proper care and feeding. So...I don't think it's a material problem...but it could be a slight set up problem. If there is no top sinking, or if the guitar is not pregnant...nut is okay...strings okay...frets okay...tuners okay...then it has to be the bridge setting, and acoustic bridges are only going to meet a compromise. You might be able to get a custom bridge more adjustable.
I know I've pointed the finger at you a little here...but don't take it wrong. If you do have dog ears... you are going to hear stuff I'll never hear even without the voices in my head. Just another suggestion is all.
BTW...I'm not voting. I need a category for;
[when 'tou wins the 'Binez LACS 7-string... trade him the Taylor for it]
I'll go at a few:
No, I don't have \"dog ears\"...in fact, I'm probably the deafest guitar player there is. Just listen to me sing. :oops:
High humidity simply never happens here. It's always low. And I've been keeping it in it's case, full time, with a Dampit to keep it in the 40's humidity-wise.
The T5 does come factory with Elixir 11's, electric (plain G) style. But I got it with different 11's, and I've since changed it to 10's, which the Taylor guys told me should have no effect on intonation or playability. I've ordered some 11's, to change back to, but I don't expect that to resolve anything.
I'm not a particularly strong-handed, heavy chord-grabber...I don't think that's it. It doesn't seem to affect me on any other of my git'rs.
It doesn't appear that the guitar is misshapen in anyway...in fact, it looks as good as new. I think it's just a setup issue, but as it's an unusual hollowbody/acoustic/electric hybrid, I'm not sure who I'd trust to work on it, besides the factory people. There's no really skilled luthiers here to choose from that are experienced with it.
There is a Taylor factory repair in Denver.
Colfax Guitar Shop - (Dave) 303-394-0099
Denver is most of a days' drive from here. But thanks for the #; I'll call the guy to talk about it... 8)
EDIT: I called and talked to this guy Dave. He sounded like he was totally comfortable with the idea of sniffing this git'rs problem/s out and with working on T5's.
So...I'm gonna be in Denver for a job interview about mid/late May, and I'll take it with me to leave at his shop. Or else ship it to him, and pick it up then? Dunno. But it's good to talk to someone that not only is capable of and confident in their ability to work on a T5, and is willing to FIX WHAT IS WRONG, instead of this \"44-point checkup\" BS that Taylor factory wants to do. :evil:
Sounds like you might want to invest in a good Peterson strobe and check out the guitar for yourself. There are some good videos on YouTube.com about how to setup and tweak guitars. Try this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOsy5KtD7JE and see where that leads. At least the videos are free, you could check out the guitar for yourself and would not have to do anything that would damage your guitar. If you find it's just an intonation problem, there's videos showing you how to adjust your guitar for that. But maybe you already know that. Anyway, if you find a problem that you feel uncomfortable performing, at least you will have a better idea of what is wrong with your guitar and you would be able to talk to a \"pro\" tech more intelligently.
So I hope you work this out. In the meantime, I'll just continue to monitor your thread.
I actually tested mine vs a big original rackmount and there was no difference in performance