Smoking bans and clubs
I was wondering about this, this past Saturday night, as I was out and about. And it was mentioned in another post.
What do you people who have been gigging for along time see? Less people due to smoking bans or more people out to enjoy a smokelesss enviroment? Or no change in patron numbers. Or does it matter if you have a strong following? And what about the purist who say that them vintage cabs owe a portion of their sound due to being saturated with smoke from all them gigs in a smoke filled room. Any truth in That?
What do you people who have been gigging for along time see? Less people due to smoking bans or more people out to enjoy a smokelesss enviroment? Or no change in patron numbers. Or does it matter if you have a strong following? And what about the purist who say that them vintage cabs owe a portion of their sound due to being saturated with smoke from all them gigs in a smoke filled room. Any truth in That?
Comments
has it cause loss of business for typical bars and walk in's YES absolutely. Are club mgt's more dependent on a bands own following?? yes they are.
It's a new policy, it will adapt over time. Clubs that provide outdoor heated areas or promoted areas will benefit.
Some local towns here enforce the 100 yds rule and those places are EMPTY, and many clubs have since closed.
One local guy got pushed into oncoming traffic and killed last fall by an angry patron that was stupid. Some suggest it's the \"must be 100yds away from the establishment\" rule that caused the lack of supervision, but who knows. Sad to report anyway... the kid was 23 years old, non smoker, but was outside talking to friends on a break. Since then, most clubs have provided security and outdoor provisions (heat, chairs, tables) to prevent worse situations.
Drinking is bad for you too, so when they ban that, I guess playing out is a moot point! Govt knows best I suppose. It all comes down to personal choice. If something is that BAD, make it illegal. If the govt reaps as much in taxes as most local state and feds do from Cigs, cigars, tobacco products.. you won't see it go away completely without them taxing something else to make up for the lost billions the get from cig and tobacco users. catch 22??
But there was a loophole for a while: If it was during an \"artistic performance\" (acting) it was legal to smoke inside. So one establishment held a \"theater night\" where all the customers were included in the act. Needless to say, the authorities stepped in and stopped their little production.
When you look for statistics, it will vary not only by region, but by establishment base. Count on any government study as being biased, as they have an agenda. Most negative studies are from tobacco industry or its allies, and they will not be open about the sources.
You can say smoking bans will not hurt businesses, overall. Particular Cities, where patrons can simply cross the State line like Cincinnati (over 70% of Buckeyes do not smoke) into Kentucky for instance, or a particular business like a Bowling Alley, can impact the statistics. But you look at a Movie Theater, and patrons will sit through the show, same as a Concert event, without smoking, as well as businesses seeing a return of non-smoking patrons, who greatly outnumber the smokers.
You may loose a few smokers, but gain back many more non-smokers who refused your establishment, because of the smoke. Now days, non-smokers are the majority, and those numbers are growing.
Each side demands their rights, and can lay down convincing claims.
All I know is the government will never legalize pot...because people will drive only 30 mph, and burn less gas. Also, the enlightenment may significantly focus people on what the establishment is really doing.
Back in the 60's and 70's...at least that was the case.
Power to the People! :evil: 8)
prohibition didn't work the first time and it doesn't work now. it just lets the cops lock up lots of minorities.
Perhaps they should take all them taxes the have heaped on tobacco and alcohol and put it on toilet paper. Then every citizen and non legal citizen will have to pay their share! Not many ways around avoiding that tissue er I mean issue.
Now when ya go to see a hard rock or metal act,it distinctly smells one of 2 ways :roll:
1-it smells like butcrack and armpit central :x
2-the fog machine reaks of some sort of fragrance that you can't seem to place :? :shock: and in the winter ,in small clubs,when the doors are closed......I've known folks to get pneumonia :shock: (both musicians AND fans)
I've had several instances where I'm on stage and my eyes start watering and stinging from all the smoke (and yes, I'm a non-smoker).
Wow, I started to wonder if it was just me. I also love the fact that I don't have to throw my clothes in wash the second I get home and dive into a shower because of the overwhelming smoking smell.
Here in NY, the ban has been in effect for a while, and all these arguments about businesses losing business has faded away. It seems like more people are going out to see live music now that they don't have to contend with a cloud of smoke.
So, even though the TV tries to blow it out of proportion, time will prove all these claims invalid. Sure, some local dives will go away, but most of the clubs will eventually benefit from the ban.
The ban also affected the use of foggers, hazers which is really no big deal since even lasers are not permitted in some areas. No vanilla haze reaking from the dance floors.
Taxation is another story in itself. Whether alcohol or tobacco, sin taxes should be voted upon by those that would have to pay for it. Otherwise it's unfair. General consumption taxes would be more appropriate and less would actually vote for such issues ( ie raise real estate taxes) . Hit up the sin tax and you have a 70-30 guarantee of passage on avg.
Talk now is of a grocers tax, since the population is down and the sin tax 5-10 year revenue payouts are a bust. I don't think the general consumption tax will be regarded by those so quick to pass a sin tax. The chips, soda, candy , ice cream and cookie people will not be happy when they have to pay more for their unhealthy products. The other talk of late was an additional tax on fast food and restaurant services of 6.5%. That will fail too.
Interesting, in the news, I also saw a couple of stories:
One anti-smoking organization did an EPA air test, inside a car, and determined that the dangerous pollution levels are almost 10 times more than what EPA allows. The organization is trying to get a law passed, not to let people smoke inside their own cars, but especially cars that may contain children, for obvious health concern reasons.
So, the bumper sticker: \"At least I can still smoke in my own car\", may not work, anymore.
Another one is a lawsuit filed by a group of smokers, suing the tobacco manufacturers, claiming that they are directly responsible for their health problems. The Supreme Court would not allow the tobacco companies to interfere with any attempts to defend themselves, until all of the evidence is presented. After it is, it will be decided whether any settlement would be payable to a group, or as a case by case settlement. Either way, it doesn't really sound like the tobacco companies are going to come out ahead in any way.
Whether it's caffeine, alcohol, tobacco, candy, fattening foods. Obesity is the biggest cause of diabetes, heart disease, yet more continue that path each year by the millions. There are more overweight people than there are tobacco users. Again, most know eating in excess is not healthy but do anyway.
But to the Orig Topic, declines from bans have initially hurt the live scenes. I agree, it will work itself out in the long haul. Some rules like being 100 yds away from the establishment is beyond stupid. That's where I defend the clubs and patrons.
What's NEXT that will hurt Live Scenes??? Guitar Hero
Some of these clubs here have been replacing Live bands, Karaoke and DJ's with Guitar Hero events.
they say smoking bans for 'private' bussines's won't hurt them but clearly it has taken it's toll on them! Is it the dwi laws now, that keep the non smoking throngs they said would show up, don't? Everyone had a choice they didn't/don't have to go in to anyplace where there is smoking! So why do people smoke it isn't good for them they complain about the cost etc. Why do people go into an estiblishment when they know there's smoking and then complain about the burning eyes and smoky clothes? If it was that big of a deal then why hadn't someone opened up there own bar and proclaim it non smoking prior to smoking bans? Perhaps someone did and it didn't fly! I don't know.
But that is/was the whole underlying point of this post! When will goverment stay out of our private lives and let us make our own choices. If everyone made a choice and stuck by it, then simple supply and demand would dictate. If non smokers didn't go to establishments where there was smoking then it seems to me them places couldn't exist for long. But as long as non smokers went and spent their money why would anything change?
It didn't bother me for them to ban smoking in public places ie goverment buildings. After all everyone smokers and non smokers HAVE to be there to do business. Every place else YOU don't have to go to! If I don't like the smell of chinese food I am not going to go hang out in a bar in a chinese restraunt!
It's all about freedom of indivdual choice! Not the goverment making our/my choice for me! ie taking away my right to make my own decisions!
But back to the topic...the smoking ban in pubs and clubs has been in parts of Canada now for sometime,2 yrs. in BC and Ont. Yes it did hurt there business for a short period of time, but everyone came back.
I have to agree, I like going out to eat and be able to smell my food and your food. I like going to the clubs now and not have some knob blowin smoke in my face, and I'm a 20yr smoker. I don't mind stepping out side,just give me a safe area to do so.
As for the 100yds thing, thats BS, and sounds alittle out there. Here(BC) you must be atleast 20' from any public entrance or air induction system. If an outdoor shelter is use for smokers, it must not be closed in on more than one side plus the roof.
The days of the smoker are numbered, and so are those tax dollars.
\"Read my lips.....Mo new taxes\"<
George Bush Sr.
Sensorship? There ain't no sensorship here! Just read some of the post, most replies are off topic, ridicule or a slam in one form or another.
Just because someone doesn't have full command of the english language and has to resort to vulgar language to express themselves doesn't mean others have to tolerate it! If someone can't figure out what the intended word is, then they shouldn't be hearing/seeing them words.
PS. I never said their was anything wrong with Canada. Just stated that it is what it is! ...eh!
YES...you do have to tolerate it...I have ful comand of teh englsh languge...AND I no all the curse wurds
....and I choose to express myself from time to time using that vernacular because it tends to get my point across so much more succinctly...
!
i actually got banned at one board for saying the following in reply to a fender vs gibson 14 page rant :roll:
\"conferance rooms,bars,parties,shopping malls,courtrooms and such are ideal places for people to \"debate\" their ideologies and beliefs.\"Debating\",whether sensible or not,is good exercise for the mind 8) In this day and age,we are blessed/cursed with the internet \"world\" where mostly faceless individuals of all levels of intelligence and maturity collectively do this now in \"mass proportions\" :shock:
So when someone asks what you do for hours on the internet,just give them a distinguished look and proudly proclaim .............\"I AM MASS-DEBATING!!!\" :P
Which is a ludicrous concept anyway...the last time anyone had an entire nation thinking the same thing, it was 1930's Germany, and look how THAT turned out. :shock:
Alot of our local clubs around here have gone under since the smoking ban. The owners claim the loss of smoking patrons has really hurt them. We also tightened up our DUI/DWI laws in this state and you can be over the legal limit for driving after just two drinks. So it has been a double whammy for the owners. On the other hand, the clubs that are making it are trying (and succeeding) to get new patrons in the clubs. This may mean offering evening meals and other types of entertainment to draw people in and keep them there. I really hope that the local clubs will rebound from the loss of their smoking patrons. I do know some people who used not to go to the smoke filled bars are now going out more. I just don't think, at this time, it has made up for the loss of the smoking patrons who have stopped coming in for smokes and drinks.
I really hope the clubs find ways in getting and keeping more patrons back into the clubs. As a gigging musician, I want the club to succeed because that means we have a better chance of getting more of the cut. My band is good enough to keep people at the bar/club, but we are a startup band and don't have much of a following yet. Family and friends come, but we are working hard on getting repeat patrons who we don't know to (re)visit our shows. We hope to get to the point where people will come to the club because they see we are playing. But that is still a work in progress. So the trick for both the bar/club owners and the band is to get people into the venue. I suppose that has always been the challenge, smoking allowed or not. Best wishes.
Patrons go to the club of their choosing based on the club itself, not on the band who's playing there. Back in the 80's we'd have people follow us from gig to gig, these days we'll see the same people at the clubs we play, when we are there, but not anywhere else.
Oh, and we had to walk through 10 feet of snow uphill both ways to get to the gigs.
That has been our experience, we hope the venue has good patronage, but as a startup band, we thought as more people heard about us and enjoyed our music, they might come out to a club we play at. Maybe that is just wishful thinking. We have gone from playing to a couple hundred people at one venue to playing for twenty people at another venue. Our music is pretty consistant so it all depends on the venue and who shows up. And, like I have said, being in Northern Minnesota we have been victims of some very cold weekends this winter (20-30 degree below zero). Best wishes.