How much does shape affect sound quality?
Q: How much does shape affect sound quality? Or is it that since it is all electric, shape doesn’t matter? http://picdit.com/?p=40
My friend at work sent me this question and I hadn't thought about it in a while, and now with the addition of modelers on the scene it would seem to matter less and less...or does it?
I have an opinion but whats yours these days? Are the 300 dollar guitars doin it for you? are the Chinese and Indo guitars the future?
I still want a Gibson ES 335 red, block, with the 58 profile neck. I am under the impression that 57's, with maple and craftmanship can be heard when you play it...but really how much does it matter to you? Since we process the heck out of everything and then have really nice pups these days in even the average guitar, do you, should you, pay more or buy a guitar with your eyes or ears these days?
Do they all sound sound so darn good these days with all the electronics that the woods and shape dont matter \"AS\" much anymore? Is it all in your fingers anyway...should we just play what feels good?
My friend at work sent me this question and I hadn't thought about it in a while, and now with the addition of modelers on the scene it would seem to matter less and less...or does it?
I have an opinion but whats yours these days? Are the 300 dollar guitars doin it for you? are the Chinese and Indo guitars the future?
I still want a Gibson ES 335 red, block, with the 58 profile neck. I am under the impression that 57's, with maple and craftmanship can be heard when you play it...but really how much does it matter to you? Since we process the heck out of everything and then have really nice pups these days in even the average guitar, do you, should you, pay more or buy a guitar with your eyes or ears these days?
Do they all sound sound so darn good these days with all the electronics that the woods and shape dont matter \"AS\" much anymore? Is it all in your fingers anyway...should we just play what feels good?
Comments
When it comes to shape...meh. That's mostly for the eye. Certain shapes that're dictated by design make a difference, but that's the design, not the shape. The Gibson ThinLine's are a good example of this.
Woods are what make the most difference. That's why old git'rs, with their fine woods, ebony fingerboards, and beautifully shaped necks are so desirable. Plus, chix dig 'em. 8)
Modern pups are more specialized than ever, so you can literally choose your sound. Back in the day, there was PAF's, P-90's, strats; and then everything else (usually a copy of one of the above).
I've had Gibsons made in MI, Strats made in the USA and Mexi, Ibanez made in Japan, copies made in my garage, and now an Ibanez made in Indonesia. :shock: I'm not a tone snob, but they all sounded good to me.
Although...the ThinLine's sounded just a little bit better...musta been the groupies hangin' around...
PS those git'rs in the pics aren't made to sound good, they're made to look good. Kinda like Linloh - pretty, but stupid... :roll:
Although I really appreciate nice craftsmanship etc., I don't get sucked in by what I consider to be BS.
At one time, 'hand-made' was something to behold but today I'd take 'CNC-made' every time.
Currently I only have one guitar that I consider to be precious and I've had it for 27 years. It's an early 'Gordon Smith' made in England and I brought it with me when I moved to the States in '84.
My other guitars are Samick, Epiphone, Agile, etc. and the only thing I do with these is replace some of the electronics.
On a recent business-related road trip, I got to my hotel and set up my laptop with audio interface to find that I had left my travel guitar at home. I really needed my guitar fix and as luck would have it, I was only a couple of miles from a GC (Knoxville TN). I decided to go for an el-cheapo which turned out to be a 'Squire Bullet Strat' for $99. This is such an unbelievable pleasure to play! The intonation is good, the action is nice and low, it stays in tune, the PUPs are as 'hot' as any SC's that I've had experience with. The only bad thing is the crap whammy and somehow fitting a $100 wilkinson doesn't seem justifiable.
I mainly use Guitar Rig with headphones when I'm on the road and I can get any sound I want out of this so-called 'beginners' guitar.
My #2 hobby is shooting high-end 'BB' guns where I spend close to $2K for each gun! This is only because I can't get the equivalent performance out of something less expensive but when it comes to guitars (been playing for 32yrs) I can no longer convince myself that I am getting something 'better' just because of the higher price.
Mickster
My buddy brought over his Epi ES 335 (wine red, gold harware) for me to jam with this weekend... :shock: Great geeeetar. He paid 300 bills and it really has alot of bang for the buck! He's leaving it with me to jam on for awhile and I really think its a versital (if somewhat Roy Orbison looking) fiddle. it has wonderful, action and great tone.
:oops: So now I know I want a ES 339...GIBSON.
wich of course i'll never own, cause it cost a fortune
I can take every electric and mechanical part off a EBMM petrucci guitar and put it on an OLP knockoff and it will NEVER sound the same.
Epi LP's are great guitars, but a Gibson LP studio will sound far beefier than a EPI custom. Not that they are bad guitars, just so much more is considered in the woods and details.
I've seen some lesser Gibby come out and some pretty questionable PRS gear. I have a PRS SE Tremonti and like it for gigs, but it NOTHING near the tone and quality of a singlecut PRS 5x the price I paid.
Yes, on cheap guitars, some woods and so on are similar and so is the shape. But most have to swap pickups, All hardware, fretting is not usually as good, and sometimes you can just tell by weight.
Some EPI's if you compare them are lighter than a LP Gibby. Some versions of the cheaper side have holes bored into them. The top covers it up, but in the sound... it's noticeable.
Can you really compare the guitars when you are boosting amps and layering effects.. Playability is one thing and many short change themselves when they buy a guitar and don't have it set up correctly. Most any guitar, Squire, Agiles, EPI, etc can play like fine machines if they are leveled (frets), intonated, and NUTS set for the gage of string in use. Those few things can set apart plays like crap comments to WOW mine don't play like that.. dude.. what'd you do???
Fpr speakers- there is much in the electronics passive and active components that set them apart. you will find taking the guts out of a JBL and putting it in a Behringer cabinet will sound good still. Now take the guts out the Behringer and put it in the JBL cabinet. Not so JBL is it?
Guitars are similar. Shape can mean less or worse if the design is not balanced off with good hardware, tonewoods, and so on. Will a high end Squire compete with a USA Fender Strat?? No, it's not meant to.
On electrics, I personally favor classic shapes, but I don't think it's too relevant to alter the sonic qualities as a good tonewood is.
Besides that, electronics make the difference, above all, pick-ups and active circuits.
On my 40+ years playing, I've played lots of guitars, and found that cheap guitars (or should I say \"budget\" guitars?) in most cases give you what you pay for, low quality pick-ups, laminated ply-woods, and often you have to spend several hours trying to setting them up to a playable condition.
At the moment I'm playing the most versatile and best sounding guitar I've ever played, a Fender Stratocaster Eric Clapton signature, with Lace Sensors, and active TBX and 25dB low-mid boost.
Believe me, no Strat, Les Paul, SG, PRS Ted McCarthy, BC Rich etc...etc... delivers such diverse tonalities, power, soul than this Strat; for me, it's THE guitar.
Besides the Strat I play a Taylor T5 Custom Koa Top and other Taylor acoustics.
If you're a serious musician and need a good tool to make your job and life easy, look for a good quality guitar on which you can rely, and prepare your wallet to invest a couple o' thousand+ bucks.
You'll never regret that.
By the way oDannyboy, good post!!!
Now I know the diffrence in models, and what they are both best at sonically so I was compairing the quality of the tone and dynamics...that is very subjective...but for my ears the ES 335 sounded great!! Mellow or sharp. Warm or with a bit of bite. I was very satsified with the jam of 5 min or so I had on it. It is setup well and a real joy to play.
OK then I picked up the Gibson for a jam useing the same Matchless amp model...
The SG's tonal range and depth were far greater than the Epi's ( thats really saying something because thats a ES 335s bread and butter tonal range). A real ES 335 would spank my SG in this regard. There was a shimmer to the highs and a depth to the lows that were subtle but oh so sweet. You wouldnt know this untill you had them side by side though.
The neck was just ... in a diffrent class all together.
I'm not sure a dumbed down bar crowd of metal heads (like me
So in conclusion I think if you don't know the differance or you know exactlly what quality your getting for whatever application you have in mind, you can be very happy with all kinds of affordable guitars... However once you open \"Padoras box of high quality\" ...it will be hard to go back and be completely Happy with less.
But that's what makes G/A/S so fun. I once owned 7 gitr's, and that's nothing compared to some of these GAS nuts we have around here!!!
Now the thing to do is to compare similar git'rs...like put your SG up against a Jackson SL or a an Ibanez 1570 or a PRS. I bet then you'd start to see the subtle differences that shape or wood or pups can make. Plus it'd be fun. 8)
And you're right - a bunch of drunk head-bangers in a bar aren't going to care if you're playing an electrified mandolin with a broken string through a Zakk Wylde fuzz box and a Morley wah. As long as it's LOUD.
With what I disagree with you in a way is that the audience doesn't notice if the Gtr you're playing is an original one or a copy. Perhaps the headbangers wouldn't notice the difference, but when I play my Strat or the T5, people come and ask me what kind of guitars I'm using, that don't sound like what they're usually hear.
An RR1 to a RR3. Body the same basically, but the RR V smokes the RR3.
But, I've seen guys put a nice Warmouth neck on a cheapie strat and make it sound phenomenal. Too many things to compare, but usually the high end guitar is just flat out made with better tonewoods and electronics.
I had a guy last year compare an Agile to my old AW Les Paul Custom ( like Bob Welch used). Not even close in tone. Same settings on the same amp.. etc etc. The Gibby smoked the Agile in every regard. Really pronounced in the neck position of all things. In Bridge the Agile notes just died in the upper register and the Gibby sang like a canary 8)
Thats my point exactly. It doesnt matter which models of whatever you pick...
my buds USA strat vs my old Epi SG. 2 completely diffrent guitars. It makes no diffrance, I still came to the same conclusion. A quality built instument that cost more is money well spent.
\"With what I disagree with you in a way is that the audience doesn't notice if the Gtr you're playing is an original one or a copy.
I always notice what the model and make the GTR player is playing. I sat through Sheyl Crows DVD just because her band musta been indorsed by GiBson and the other by fender.. they kept bringing out 61 SGs, FirebirdV, Prtotype Teles for slide ...I love guitars!!!
Shred I want your PRS. thats another quality fiddle I'd like to spend time with.
:shock: Damn him :!: ...the nerve of some people :!: :roll:
:shock: Damn him :!: ...the nerve of some people :!: :roll:
density of body stucture,hardware,electronics,build quality of the neck all have major bearing on the tone.Shape plays little in this equation 8) shape=image(of course unless its an accoustic,thinline,semi-hollowbody,or anything equipped with a piezo)
as far as cnc vs handmade......I have 3 handmade electrics and over 40(i have stopped counting :P ) imports of various age(1 handmade) and its the human element and the guaranty that it will play right immediately that makes a handmade great for someone that needs an axe that doesn't need to be messed with.of course the cnc'd guitar made out of medium quality wood and componants has its place...........it doesn't hurt so bad when they get stolen
I dont think the shape affects the sounds THAT much. I believe it depends on the wood and construction method (eg neck thru etc).
depends on how well maintained the equipment/machines.........its the reason why my RR3 came with a crooked neck pocket,its why i have seen bridge posts off by 1/8 of an inch,its why i have seen 25 1/2 inch scale fretboards at 25 1/4......................
we can only hope :twisted: I have worked next to people building neckthrough handmade guitars at Moser Custom Shop.Neal Moser invented the BC Rich \"Bich\",\"Virgin a.k.a.Scythe\",the complex anything goes electronics, and is greatly responsible for the success of BC Rich during its 1974-1985 vintage era.Look at the MCS website and see some of the amazing work.NO cnc guitar comes with the mojo that his do.....absolutely stunning :shock: :shock: :shock:
most of the mass produced cnc'd guitars come with decent tonewoods,but not what i would call \"the best\".I love Ibanez JS model,Jem,and Universe..........but basswood looks like a**wood without a thick coat of paint :roll: :shock:
btw-i have witnessed guys at gibson fill knotholes in a LP with epoxy and i pity the soul that looks at their $2200 investment and has not one clue
BTW-the trick to getting a quality import is to make sure it has a 2 piece(or better) neck with a 2 way truss rod
:shock: :shock: :evil: :evil:
how about Japanese market only :roll: BC rich filled with injection foam :shock: (never seen anything like that with any other BCR) Or a Jackson custom shop with no fret dressing :shock: they pressed in the frets,filed the sides and shipped it with out levelling-recrowning-or polishing :x I have also seen Fenders that way :? All companies that put out cookie cutter guitars have \"Bad moments\"
Handmade guitars are ridiculously expensive for what you get. I am a poor student
well,then i can understand your position and point of view
I've been a musician for 31 years so maybe that explains my point of view :shock:
Shape, wood and hardware I think make a huge difference to a guitar. Maybe it comes down to how much of a 'purist' you are and how you approach your playing. I'm a bit of a minimalist when it comes to effects etc and I run with the philosophy that I develop a nice tone direct to the amp in the first place and use effects for variation after that. But I know plenty of guitarists who crank up the effects/distortion so much it wouldn't matter if they were playing an expensive ax or tearing the life outa a cat! In this situation I guess it just comes down to the power of the pickups - no other tonal characteric can be distinguished. :?
I think having a specific guitar shape helps identify your particular sound and a lot of that is in combination with your fingers. A lot of the fun in guitar playing is developing your own sound so whats the point in having a 'neutral sounding' guitar that sounds like everyone else?? But I suppose some people want to sound like their idol and go buy (for example) signature models (me included :P ). For example, I played an 07 Petrucci ax 2 days ago, a beautiful guitar but even playing thru a Mesa I couldn't sound like him!
Sorry, but I think more money means a better guitar and I think we all aspire to one day owning our dream axe. However, I've found the tonal characteristics in particular brands and models can be quite surprising. For example, when I bought my Les Pauls and Teles, I had to try at least 20 of each before I was completely happy - I was amazed at the tonal differences and I'm talking the exact same models in each brand.
In the debate between handmade and cnc - both have their pro's and cons. My question is how 'custom' are some of these custom shop guitars floating around these days? Are we just paying for timber and finishes these days or is there a bit of rubbing 'n' lovin happening there in the creation of your dream guitar?? I was a bit worried when I ordered my ESP Horizon Custom Shop from the factory which took forever to arrive, but when I got it I could see/hear the difference imediately to my Horizon standard. Admittedly its not better - just a little different and nicer to ogle at! It was finished/set up perfectly and you could tell there was some love in its creation.... thank god when I think of the price of it!
Now for a flipside argument.... so ok I'm a bit of a shape purist - thats how I justify my growing ax collection to the other half :oops:
Does anyone else know of anyone who is this anal retentive in their approach to guitars and gear??
P.S Sorry if this is long!! 8)
What I am saying is that although a tele may be percieved as a guitar for one certain purpose, it can easily fulfill the role of others (rock). Just the same as my xiphos can.
And when it comes to unique tone, I dont even try with the amp side of things. Think about it. There are probably nearly a billion electric guitarists out there, and if they all search for a unique tone... :shock: . My unique tone is just from the playing style. Although these days I mostly play shred, the tone is very very dependant on you, even if the gain is high.
I know a lot of people that cannot handle the concept of digital modelling! Even if my sound completely trumps theirs they will argue black and blue that tubes are better! :x
and Teles for metal.....lookup John 5
if ya want a pile of BS writen well about shape effecting tone,lookup Minerik (or Minarik :? )Guitars. :roll: :roll: now,i have been a Snap-on customer for 25 years and i know a tool when i see one
Other than a few independant regional luthiers,the only hand carved from scratch custom shop guitars i know of are Dean,BC Rich,Jackson,and MCS.
I remember seeing a Custom Shop Jackson (soloist style) a few years ago and the owner claimed it was completely hand carved. Cost a fortune and it was an incredible guitar to look at... didn't plug it in though. Yep I wouldn't say my ESP Custom Shop is 'hand' carved but its certainly finished nicely. Trouble is, completely hand crafted guitars are incredibly expensive which puts them out of price range for all but a few oil barons. I remember years ago seeing some of the Fender custom shop creations and they had them valued well over 10 grand US. Back in those days that was like 20 grand plus here in Oz.... ouch!! thats a lotta beer!
I find the Wolfgang an interesting shape. Kinda in between a Tele and a Les Paul perhaps??
if i remember right ....Minariks Medusa was almost a dead ringer for Yavcons Discordian . the whole thing turned into a circus but the guitar WAS pulled from the display :twisted:
tele and LP 2
ESP's are imho the best Japanese guitar made!! They are still cheaper than the American handmades.My Beast listed at $3000 and the Moser 6 i have being built lists for close to $5k but it will be beyond belief :shock:
And yep... I can tell the diff between a LP and an epi copy.. Same with my strat and teles...
But in the world of rarified hollow body, hand made archtops..
Yeah it matters a LOT...
Danny...
Get that 335..You'll love it!!!