Bettyboo's Duck's Nuts
The frustrative cry from far and wide..
Studio to gig.....studio to studio....your patch to my hardware....versa veesa...
Like fingerprints, we all have different ears, and by ears I mean 'all things hearing'....tough variable to throw on the concept of perception when we're throwing patches and tracks back and forth over the internet in these marvelous times.
On top of that gauntlet to standardization, all of us have different gear, different budgets and play in different environments....My workstation sits in my dungeon, at this time is played isolated through a vinty Pioneer SX-939 and routed either to B&O RL 140's or Mirage 290is speakers...sometimes both pairs. Throw in a computer, keyboard and a hatfull of software and that's my meatball DAW...It's all I got, and all I'm gettin for a while. It sounds fantastic !!! However, the reader might come into my dungeon, and leave convinced I couldn't produce an audio book on this ragtag setup.
How do we / can we at least equalize and standardize our systems to sound similar at least....I want to hear what you hear, and vorsa viza...
Lotsa tips on guitar tuning, lotsa talk about the hunt for tone ... not much on system tuning....I know a little about pink noise equalization, enough to show my ignorance, and I'd like to yield the floor to the pros and leave the subject open....
It would be good if a member could identify himself as 'tone tuned' and maybe more would jump on the bandwagon of standadization....Speak o' wise ones....
MODS : Sorry, I put this in GNX3000 :oops: Can you move it to General Yak please ??
\BettyBoo\ wrote:I found I spent hours warping on my 3k thinking what I created was the ducks nuts, only to find it was crap at the gig! :evil:
Studio to gig.....studio to studio....your patch to my hardware....versa veesa...
Like fingerprints, we all have different ears, and by ears I mean 'all things hearing'....tough variable to throw on the concept of perception when we're throwing patches and tracks back and forth over the internet in these marvelous times.
On top of that gauntlet to standardization, all of us have different gear, different budgets and play in different environments....My workstation sits in my dungeon, at this time is played isolated through a vinty Pioneer SX-939 and routed either to B&O RL 140's or Mirage 290is speakers...sometimes both pairs. Throw in a computer, keyboard and a hatfull of software and that's my meatball DAW...It's all I got, and all I'm gettin for a while. It sounds fantastic !!! However, the reader might come into my dungeon, and leave convinced I couldn't produce an audio book on this ragtag setup.
How do we / can we at least equalize and standardize our systems to sound similar at least....I want to hear what you hear, and vorsa viza...
Lotsa tips on guitar tuning, lotsa talk about the hunt for tone ... not much on system tuning....I know a little about pink noise equalization, enough to show my ignorance, and I'd like to yield the floor to the pros and leave the subject open....
It would be good if a member could identify himself as 'tone tuned' and maybe more would jump on the bandwagon of standadization....Speak o' wise ones....
MODS : Sorry, I put this in GNX3000 :oops: Can you move it to General Yak please ??
Comments
Well since this topic is named from my uncouth remark, I guess I better get this discussion started. Yes, mine was a frustrative cry from afar - the other side of the world actually! :oops:
Hodge, when you say standardized and equalized systems are you actually asking how can we all have the same tones?? Halt me if I'm wrong but I'm not really sure thats possible. Firstly, we all have different hearing so I guess I'm definitely 'tone tuned' - but only tuned into the tone I like. :?
Secondly, can we trust our gear to 'standardize' a tone? For instance, I've had two GNX3's side by side, same settings exactly and they both sounded different. How do you explain that? spooky! Same model guitars can sound different also etc, etc
Thirdly, I'm a big believer in the fact that fingers have a big part in tone and not just gear.
Why would you want people to sound the same, if thats what you're getting at? Isn't it a goal for guitarists to get a nice individual tone. Thats why so many gear options are out there for us to explore. Record companies seem to clone artists into a standardized sound (esp. Top 40) and thats bad enough. Why do that to guitarists?
Not sure if this is the direction/nature of the discussion you are looking for, but its a start. You might have to clarify yourself a little for me ie. the merits behind this bandwagon of standardization. Thanks.
It works for live bands traveling from venue to venue, giving a e.q. baseline for the engineers to push off from...wondering if the same principals can work for our world of long distance musical relationships.
Interesting comment about your twin GNX's...Didn't realize that was possible, and if so it shoots to hell the subject line I'm addressing.....
If it makes you happy having \"pleasing\" tone, then that's great. However, the audience you play to really couldn't care for your tone at all, unless it is particularly painful or hard to hear. No one in the crowd (unless you play to tone-obsessed guitarists) is going to jump up and say \"Sweet tone! Sounds exactly like a mesa dual rectifier! You just made my day!\".
Tone in my opinion, is a fruitless thing to search for, because the more time you spend with a certain tone, the more you become accustomed to it and thus your objectivity dissapears.
I am not saying that good tone is not a thing worth having, just that you should not value it over playing, nor spend huge amounts of time getting.
As for the twin GNX3's, this occurred a couple of years ago before I bought my 3k. A friend of mine also had a 3 and he wanted to copy some clean tones. So I put in the exact presets and parameters from mine and it sounded a little different even though I tried it using the same guitar and amp rig. A little mystified I got both hooked up for a true comparison and found my unit had more bass and mids than his. We couldn't work it out so he just made the adjustments to get his as close as possible. We even set both eq's on the GNX's and amp at flat 12o'clock and we got the same result. His just sounded a little thinner.
So it beats me. Now that I have my 3K I haven't actually compared it o anyone else's, but I seriously wouldn't be surprised if another GNX3K sounded the tiniest bit different. Anyone else ever compared the sound of two GNX units?
BBoo.
8 discreet amplifiers need to EQ and level match as close as possible...This is accomplished by a \"standards / alignment tape\", plays sine waves at a precise level and you tweak the tone adjustments on the individual amps until your VU meter on that amp reads the desired level...A bit more to it, and the initial tune was quite time consuming, but that's the general idea...in the end, you have a deck that reproduces fairly accurately and predictably...your guitar would sound the same no matter which track you recorded it on...I can send that tape to the Left Coast to another studio and if their deck is tuned, it will reproduce accurately....
Breathe..........I'm getting to it...
The same standard, different process applies to reinforcement in the studio. Here's a good one, and I said it, you can quote me... \"Reference monitors ain't referenced, unless they're referenced.
Accurate reproduceability , that's my point, as much as is possible. Put it in play....BB is going to work on a GNX3000 Brian May patch for me for a project we're doing for a radio promo...BB runs a bit shrilly on his audio setup, so he compensates in his patch setup by cutting back on the high EQ of the GNX, attempting to warm the tone a bit, maybe more than a bit...good call..to him, it's the Duck's Nuts...done...Send it to hodge...
I come down to the dungeon, coffee, bathrobe, cigarette..yawn..Pop open the email, collect the anticipated delivery....Lock and load...
Now, my high EQ is a bit attenuated, and my system takes a bit more out of the middle frequencies than BB's...
NOTE: I am speaking about measurable and adjustable EQ frequency output at the speakers now.. BB studio vs. hodge dungeon
So, I fire up Elizabeth, my axe, and start to play BB's patch...OMG, it sounds awful...muddy and non-expansive...I write him back, he doesn't like my displeasure, we lose the promo contract and I get a box for X-mas from Down Under full of kangaroo crap.
Throwing patches back and forth is just a minute example...Imagine trying to engineer a multitrack project, long distance with the same anomolies of equalization.
Of course we all perceive sound differently, but without standardization that differential gap only widens exponentially. If my topic is still a bit ambiguous and foggy to the reader, think of it in terms of simply trying to set the corroborators of a project at the same mixing console, and for my speakers to reproduce what your speakers are radiating, as much as is possible. More close the gap of our perception, not widen it......
More specifics later after I dig around a bit......
Still doing a bit of research...
Correct, exact is not possible, but I submit to the readers that the closest possible common equalization to a standard is a useful and desireable goal, especially if the concept catches on with the same passion as some of us tune our guitars....If it's tuneable, why not tune it.....I can say this..Prior to entering into a project of any seriousness with another studio or studios, I would do everything I could to convince my corroborators of the subject that I post, whether they were down the street or in Australia. Got a buddy down the road a piece , GNX3000, vst vsti toys, etc.. his setup sounds totally different than mine, albeit similar in structure and function, and I know that does not have to be. I have not been involved in any real multi-resource / multi-talent projects for quite some time, but I want to, and I'm getting ready .... Pretty new to digital capabilities...nice to be back.
I use guitar as an example, overseas patch swapping as the simplest analogy to illustrate a problem...What I'm speaking of relates to home music audio production as a whole, not just guitar.
FYI, I am not standardized ... I have not EQ'd my studio, I do not have the tools , but I'm looking, wanting the feedback from others. Our studio in Denver was EQ'd with pink noise and a spectrum analyzer I believe...don't remember exactly, I did not do it...
Hope to have some concrete stuff soon on the subject.....