Have the supermodels actually hurt the community?
I have been a GNX3 user for a while now, and still love it. The community use to be vibrant with users making new patches. Some were great, some needed work. That was one of the things that made this community great. Many people would listen to a patch, talk about it, tweak it, and it would become a new patch.
All of this seems to have come to a stand still after the Supermodels came out. Some may argue that they are the best patches out there. Others may disagree. I don't know.
One thing is for certain, it has killed the patch making community. Maybe people are intimidated. The supermodels have made people stop making patches. In fact, it may have stopped people from learning, or even trying, to make patches of their own.
All of this seems to have come to a stand still after the Supermodels came out. Some may argue that they are the best patches out there. Others may disagree. I don't know.
One thing is for certain, it has killed the patch making community. Maybe people are intimidated. The supermodels have made people stop making patches. In fact, it may have stopped people from learning, or even trying, to make patches of their own.
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Comments
Even if i did get the supermodels, i would still tweak them to my needs.
I don't care how my rig sounds, as long as I hook up with the hottie that loves tall guys. Guess I oughtta learn to play first, eh? :roll:
This is based on statistical data???? This is a very bold statement to make without presenting the data and statistical analyses to prove it. Weren't the last 15 threads this week bashing the Supermodels enough?? Maybe if we focus on the positive, people would be more interested in participating. Enough already - PLEASE
Many people are relying on the existing amp recipes, but many are also changing these.
maybe we could post our best patches OR as we make a new patch or taylor 1 to our needs we could post it for critique.
Another big disappointment is the user contributed patch organization. Anybody can post a patch which is great, but a lot of them are useless and the time it would take to sort through them all would be a luxury. Patches should be voted on a scale of 1-10 for things like \"orginality\" instead of the \"like\"/\"don't like\" method. That way patches getting a vote of say 2 would quickly sink to the bottom of the list.
And what about Digitech reps. You never see actual DT people here on the forums. Sure i've met Craig Anderton who was paid to make some tutorials, but what about the people beind the curtain who make the product. I wanna know more about what makes a gnx4 different from the 3000 other than generic information on the product pages. I want to discuss likes and dislikes with the people who designed the product.
Another thing. How come there is no factory upgrades that alter the gnx's sounds. Surely the entire units potential is not tapped by the original firmware. How about some aftermarket chip mods? I'm starting to get bored with its sounds and rarely hear a unique patch these days.
Another thing that really blows is there is 2 different forums. The old one and the new one. Most of the best posts and discussions are no longer interactive. And seemingly a lot of the orginal contributors have been alienated.
he gnx will fade into obscurity just like all the other discountinued Digitech stuff.
Ok, so this turned into a rant, I guess i am just waiting for a smaller company to make a great product like Digitech does.
My vote is supermodels discs are a bad thing for the community here. I wasn't there to see the changes you saw ednrg, but it sounds like this patch making community has been divided up and new users don't even know how to join in.
The GNX4 is amazing, but it can be difficult for a regular guy to dialup something that sounds great. The Super Series solved this problem as it's pretty much plug'n'play. If you're looking for something specific, it's there and may only need some minor tweaking to your setup.
I don't know if it specifically ruined the patch making community? This place changed alot when the look and layout of the forum changed. IMO, this may have had effected the patch making community more. This place has never been the same since the change. Alot of people who were here for years, through different models of GNX's, have disappeared. While this new look is better for organization, it has taken away the intimacy of what once seemed to be a closer community.
:idea: The Supermodels are great ...maybe just don't use them as a crutch continue to tweek and re invent them to make your own sounds. and maybe repost your tweeked models so the rest of use can checkem out.
just my rambling 2 cents
I agree somewhat there was a warm fuzzy feeling to the old forum. but to tell you the truth...I always hated the old forum when it seemed like a couple of guys acted like they owned it ,and made homemade cds and would argue online for days about trivial fights over non existant rights to songs they mastered for others at home and get in fights and tell the other how much they were dissed ETC that really sucked I don't miss that aspect of it at all.
overall I get alot of fun outta this forum for some darn reason...I think youguys are cool :!: rawkers of ALL ages and countrys sharing musical ideas still gives me the warm fuzzys....(insert group hug here)
But ya,you are wright,the patch disc and the site patch library are only gonna sound as good as what there being played back through and you still gotta tweek them to get the flavor \"you\"want
Everyone has to remember that we are talking about something very subjective...interpretation of sound as art. Secondly, I would like to say that I've been around for a longer time than most, and once people heard what Mike was capable of, LOTS of people were BEGGING G3456 to post more more more patches. Look back at the old forum posts...you'll see. If I had HUNDREDS of people asking for more, and I needed the spectrum analyzers and a G5 (or whatever), a pile of mikes, not to mention the 100 odd amps a dude would have to own, rent or borrow, and the TIME, I would want a little return too.
G3456 had a great deal of support from the members of this forum, both before and during the creation of the 'models or else I'm sure he would NOT have done it. I for one own the Ultimate series, and plan to buy another one when I get my GNX3K. Mike gave/gives us support and answers to many other issues and problems both before and after the 'models, and he moderates the forum.
ne1roc is right, 99% of the user made patches sound like garbage to me 'cause Billy made it with his hand me down Crate and a Jay Turser, and it sounds like crap through my Les Paul and Mode four w/1960's ( I wish!) but you get the point. I would bet big that Mikes patches were dl'd at least 10 to 1 over any other user made patches in the old forum. Granted there were a few outstanding original patches (nee Ham 'n' Cheez).
I don't know about you guys, but I'm a guitar player. If I wanted to be a knob tweeker I would have got into engineering, and sold the Wolfgangs. I want to play, and anything that allows me to play more and tweek less is good for me. You may not agree. If its the cost that turns anyone off, head on over to Line6's site and see what it takes to deck out yer pod XT Live...
I also question the motives of why people are complaining about this. Most of the people that I knew, left because they got outta the GNX series altogether (or other issues with the unit itself), not because there's no good free patches anymore. I think that the move to phpbb has as much to do with killing the old \"ways\" as anything (what about the silly bboard games?). Yes, it was great for a while, when Mike was posting patches and amps for free, but alas, there is no free lunch.
Peace,
Dobb.
God Bless All!!!
Partch
8)
The only way your going to get more (and better) user patches is to get Digitech involved more. Once that's done, you'll find more people buying the Digitech gear, which in turn will result in more user patches.
many patch posters were as gun-shy since criticism was pretty high.. who wants that embarrassment??
So, we took the next step.. we made the VIDS and other educational materials as a work around to the manual, and user based patches. To provide a simplified means of advanced level programming and Live sound/recording patch creation. Some subscr to SS modeling, many more do not. Any of which can use the PUBLIC information at our site to create their own sounds for their guitar, their rig, which with more accuracy in GNX models (unike RP's and Sdisk designs of the past) are more affected when using a Squier vs a LES PAUL Custom -vs- Ibanez- vs- MC Carty. that is without even considering the amplification rig.
Users can post GNX modeled patches or their own models here at any time.. why they don't is most likely for the reasons listed here in this topic. SS designs will NOT eq or assign cabs properly unless lic versions are obtained..it's a protection as many who have pirated copies have found out. Others have an appreciation for what we do.. The protection does not affect GNX based models, or their application... So go for for it! The factory based playing field is even.. Nobody is stopping anybody from using and tweaking factory models or posting!
So to put it on the table.. less patches are because users wanted INFO more than 5000 unusable (in their mind, not mine) patches.. to create and customize their rig which is obviously different than yours and others and would require many additional tweaks.. many of which are not tweakers. So instead they watch the free VIDS, make their own designs for their guitar and amp.. simple as that.
Others prefer to spend the time here creating Fun posts or critical posts about the GNX, Digitech support, it's usage, instead of making patches.. Wait.. .. it gets better.. less have posted patches since most users prompted them to ALSO post an MP3 along with it.. many of which have no idea how to use Pro Tracks, the recorder, much less an encoder ..
Now if you heard criticism, \"not enough of this or that\".. \"sounds like crap on my guitar\".. \"my amp doesn't give me that sound\".. \"next time provide an MP3\"...and you read this as often from people even trying to post much less a lurker.. WOULD YOU post anything??? sad when you can find far more complaint posts than actual patches posted. This is no different than it has been before in the previous forum..sad to say. Users can post patches , discuss topics, they just spend more discussing sometimes than they do building and creating patches.. again.. by choice.. so who's at fault here?? If users don't own it, they can't use it anyway..No more or no less than a recommendation for an outboard processor.. some like it , some talk about it and never used it.. if you don't have it, how does that affect any user here? I guess you could give the same argument for the Tech 21 amp or Atomic reactor. Not everybody owns it. they say it sounds good, others that don't own one disagree.. but how does any user saying \"check out the atomic reactor\" affect patch creation?? Obviously they'd have to be tweaked for that amp.. could a non Atomic Reactor user benefit from a patch made for it?? Probably not.
As for competing modelers. Only L6 provides optional upgrades. Users without those upgraded discs, licensed to their pod cannot benefit from patches made with the model pack upgrades unless others than dload own them as well.
The supermodels are simply a tool. There will never be a time when a tool is responsible for human behavior (i.e. ruining the community).
Remember, these aren't just patches, but amp models to build patches with. Before the disk I had a shabby selection of tools. Now with the disk I have a full size roll around with every drawer stuffed.
I feel that the creation of your own sound trumps the value of parroting someone else’s. You'll have to excuse me if I've hurt anyone's feelings but you see I bought this disk last month that has made me rude and insensitive
Well said dude. The only thing that will damage the community is negativity, which I must say I have seen creeping in more frequently.
The following was a posted by grathan in response to a reccommendation of the SS disc:
\"some people here really like them and can't wait to tell new people to run out and buy them right away\"
WTF is that all about grathan? You may not like the SS disc which is fair enough, eaach to his own etc, but with that comment you just come across as sounding patronising! Hey, I may be wrong if that wasn't your intent and I'll apologise if that's the case but from your post earlier in this thread I don't think it is. You seem to be very disapointed with a lot of things here as well as the \"stupid disc\". Life is too short to dwell on little disapointments. Easy solution, go somewhere where you'll be happier. I bought the SS disc and there are some patches I'm not too keen on, sometimes I have a fiddle with them to see if I can tweak it into something which suits my preferences, if not I just move on to the next one, no harm done and I don't feel incensed to complain about it. As far as samples of the disc go there are decent samples on the website. If I didn't like the disc at all I certainly wouldn't complain here about it partly due to the amount of work that has went into creating it and the continued support & updates offered and also due to the fact that whilst it may not be to my taste it will be to others. I'll leave you with one of my grannies gems \"If you have nothing decent to say, don't say anything\".
TY
shando
here's a saying that my own gandmother was fond of shando
I am a stupid person and I deserve a smack in the face - true, but...
freedom of speech is the most important thing and that means being able to speak your mind even if it goes against the dominant opinion of the group - that isnt 'negativity' its just a different POV - so cool your heels dood!
I dont doubt the supermodels aided the GNX3 and 4 community a great deal - i was certainly impressed in the difference in sound quality.
And i think Mike is an excellent moderator and a valued contributor to the community who has a lot of knowledge and advice to give and spends a lot of time learning how to make these things perform new and funky tricks - i respect the guy - i know it aint a two way thing but sh*t 'appens.
But the GNX3000 is a different animal and i think it is the best MFX out there at the moment and i want it to develop on its own strengths - wich means everyone learning how to use it - i guess the supermodels arent damaging so long as there are other contributors - if its just one guy doing it all then its going to become mike's pedal and i guess that's what worries me - i want it to develop organically not become one persons thing - i just find it difficult to grasp the concept of paying for and being able to copywrite patches - the RP and and genesis and GNX forums were always a lot less exclusive in the past - people contributing and getting excited - you know - even if 99% of people didnt like the contribution at least 1% would and that would be a beautiful thing man 8)
and as for people being too scared to contribute - well that's where i come in
BTW G3456 - i think the quickest and simplest way to put this all to bed is to get a digitech guy to come onto the forum and say \"we back g3456 - he is performing a useful function that we dont have the resources to undertake ourselves so please let him go about his business\" = that will make it all official and no one could argue with it - heck! even little old me would have to quit my interminable complaining.
mmmkay???? :twisted:
But I spent several hours working on patches yesterday.
I downloaded patches , messed with patches that I made, and loaded some patches off the ss disc.
first of all I'm not very good at making patches but I know I will get better as I do it more.I have to say that I love having the disc because I have more options---more starting points. and if I can find something and tweek it to my taste then that saves me some time for playing and not making patches.
g3456 --thank you for the disc--Its been a blessing and saves me time and has given me alot more tones.also thanx for all your timely answers on this forum
I still think we could and I'm going to start posting patches that I've done or tweeked for others to criique.
I was playing around with my GNX3 (for the last time) the other day. I pulled up a backup of my patches, with supermodels in ~50% of the patches or so. Now that's the stuff!! The models are very responsive to the picking dynamics, guitar tone/volume, etc.
With GNX3000, not the case - the stock amps do not lack dynamics nearly as much, and the supermodels aren't critical. But as was mentioned, it's a tool. By analogy, you could either use a calculator for a week, or get a spreadsheet and spend a day instead - sure call it lazy.
I agree with Shando, we don't need negativity here. Go out and buy the Super Series if you don't have it already. Its incredible!
Shando, I mean \"stupid\" in the sense that the discs should not be considered \"end all\" solution for people looking for a specific tone. There is a patch community with hundreds of contributors and tweakers of all experience levels. Yet the first time someone posts on how to get a led zeppelin tone it's assured somebody's response will be to go out and spend $100 on a disc of patches. Do i think the patches are \"stupid\"? No, i think they are great. Its just the concept of here is some new guy with maybe 3 posts to his name asking for advice on the new unit they just dropped $400 on and the first advice they get from this form is to go out and spend another $100 on patches.
Then there is another issue. If you use the 100's of amp and cabinet models that you paid money for to create a really cool patch, do you have the right to share it with the community or is the custom cabinet you used copyrighted? If so then this is also become a hinderence on community patch creations.
I had a different name on the old board.
I started this thread after noticing that user patch contributions have taken a nose dive after 2 events. One was the move to the new board format, and the other was the supermodel release.
I do not own the supermodels, nor have I badmouthed them (or guitar3456). I simply started a discussion.
Think back to one time users of GNX units saying it didn't sound good at all... once they learned about Speaker Comp from users here.. they gave it another GO.. that built this Community. Recommendations, helpful tips and time saving tricks for Live usage and recording setups.. all help the Community.. way way more than patches. posting can be like a fad.. it has ups and downs, not all appreciate a majority of Metal or Steve Vai attempts. Instead they may want something cleaner.. who has done that?? One clean patch for every 300 metal ones.. you'll find other resources if you have too.
Do you want to be the guy that comes here, reads this community, and asks for a Bob Welch patch? I've seen users ask for Fleetwood mac patches.. the post has 0 comments.. So, I email them a few!! Many of you fail or ever get to see the behind the scenes. Have you had a phone call from a soundman 30 min before a show on a FRI Night and helped them set up the GNX for a user out of state?? I have.. guess what.. they don't have any prod from me either.. But they did call Cust Service and thank them for a GREAT COMMUNITY !
if you look back with headphones, monitors, speakers, and other accy's not including Sonar and it's heap of plugins.. The recording aspects and other user recommendations have surged the pocket books for many. Not all have MDR7506's but some wish they did. For others, Walmart phones do just fine. Some pay 299 for BFD.. others wish they had.. some Not.. fair enough. users with blocked out functions on an Unlic version would find it less pleasing.. and stick out like a sore thumb when ranting.
I'm a little more distant about things I do not own or even have no experience using. I won't tell anyone the VOX is a piece of garbage if I don't own it, serviced it, or tracked it's repair rate. Those are as debatable given demographics, amt of dealers that have them.. etc. Just to be fair.
Same for soundcards and what not. If they have an EMU I'll tell them all they want to know.. If you have an Maudio and I don't have one, I'm not going to say it's not worth it.. instead I say ask someone who knows... I don't have one! I don't call them stupid for doing so even if against my personal recommendations.. to do so would give less creedence and respect to anything I say, do, or suggest here..or anywhere else for that matter.
Negativity does and will hurt the Community more than less patches and reviews ever could. So, be careful of how you put things.. use the edit key if you need to.. that will gain you respect and build a much stronger community than asserting negativity and impolite conduct. Many other forums out there promote and condone such things.. some call that Open.. other find it distasteful in any professional regards.
I'm sure the intent of the post was not to beat anybody up.. so stop.. please. In my profession, I've had worse.. believe me!! Just try dealing with 5 ego musicians, and a mgr in a crowded control room at mixdown.. then you'll know.... If you did and all was good... you are better than I !!