Tone Patches... We don't need no stinking patches !
Just a general comment and possibly the start of a thread to discuss the creation of patches that suit your purposes.
First, to all who have posted and emailed me positive comments on my tone, THANK YOU ! It appears that there is a problem with the files and some people haven't been able to load them. I'm writing with this with the idea that maybe it will help you to create the sound you want or copy a sound you've heard.
OK, to start, here's some general comments. I've thought about this a lot during the last 20 years or so... trying to learn how to play and teaching others...
Technique: A suggestion on achieving the tone you want, focus first on how you play and not on the equipment. Remember, garbage in, garbage out. For example: If your picking and finger isn't good your sound won't be clean. Much of you're sustain will be lost if the strings buzz. Picking a note and just letting it sit there will sound boring. Give it some vibrato. If you want an edgy sound (bluesy or whatever) try striking more that one string at a time (not a clean double stop but more for the string noise). Also, as I've recently learned, pay attention to how the pick contacts the string (up and down strokes produce different sounds, edge of pick versus the tip or flat of string).
Equipment: Next, keep you guitar in good condition. Intonation is KEY !! If you're guitar isn't properly intoned everything you play will sound off. Good cables, good strings (old ones sound dull! - Thing vs Thick), and a decent amp (I'm not getting into the the GNX/Guitar amp/PA system thing).
OK, this is stuff you probably already know...
As for creating patches... Here's some of my thoughts (disclaimer - please don't argue terminology. I'm trying to explain this as quickly as I can and don't want to worry if I'm using the right word).
Think of the final sound as consisting of ATTACK (how the sound starts), SUSTAIN (the body of the sound and how long it lasts), and DECAY (how the sound stops).
Think of the final tone you want. Try to figure out what kind of attack, sustain and decay you want.
ATTACK: Is the attack quick and sharp or slow and mellow. There are several ways you can alter the attack. Compression On/Off and it's parameters (if you use compression you can loose a little of the inital atack of the note and you may need to increase the gain a bit to regain it), my trick is to use the tube screamer with drive set to zero and tone control set low, pickup sim on/off (humbuckers and single coils have different attacks), and gate attack all affect the initial attack of the note.
SUSTAIN: Here I'm refering to the body of the sound and this is where I think the EQ has the most effect. The amp and cabinet you choose also become important. Distortion (gain and stombox distortion), delay, chorus, vibrato, phase, flange, and compression ratio (higher ratios give longer sustain but will reduce the overall dynamic range).
DECAY: Here I'm talk specifically about the note stops (all good things must come to an end) not how long it lasts. How the sound ends can be affected by things like reverb, copression (higher lower ratios give quicker decay), gating (remember that gating will only shorten a note NOT lengthen it), reverb and delay can help provide the illusion of a longer decay.
Keep in mind that the guitar is actually a percussive instrument. Once the string is struck the sound begins to decay and there is very little you can do to alter this. Violins and wind instruments on the other hand can have almost (depending on how long you can keep bowing or blowing) infinite sustain.
In my opinion heavy effects will muddy the notes and make complex harmonies sound bad. Sometimes heavy effected sound is desired. I would suggest that you think about effects such as modulation (chorus, flange, etc), delay, and reverb last.
OK, this is just a very quick and dirty list of things I've run into in trying to create my own sound. These are the things I think about and the order in which I think about them. Hopefully this topic will cont
First, to all who have posted and emailed me positive comments on my tone, THANK YOU ! It appears that there is a problem with the files and some people haven't been able to load them. I'm writing with this with the idea that maybe it will help you to create the sound you want or copy a sound you've heard.
OK, to start, here's some general comments. I've thought about this a lot during the last 20 years or so... trying to learn how to play and teaching others...
Technique: A suggestion on achieving the tone you want, focus first on how you play and not on the equipment. Remember, garbage in, garbage out. For example: If your picking and finger isn't good your sound won't be clean. Much of you're sustain will be lost if the strings buzz. Picking a note and just letting it sit there will sound boring. Give it some vibrato. If you want an edgy sound (bluesy or whatever) try striking more that one string at a time (not a clean double stop but more for the string noise). Also, as I've recently learned, pay attention to how the pick contacts the string (up and down strokes produce different sounds, edge of pick versus the tip or flat of string).
Equipment: Next, keep you guitar in good condition. Intonation is KEY !! If you're guitar isn't properly intoned everything you play will sound off. Good cables, good strings (old ones sound dull! - Thing vs Thick), and a decent amp (I'm not getting into the the GNX/Guitar amp/PA system thing).
OK, this is stuff you probably already know...
As for creating patches... Here's some of my thoughts (disclaimer - please don't argue terminology. I'm trying to explain this as quickly as I can and don't want to worry if I'm using the right word).
Think of the final sound as consisting of ATTACK (how the sound starts), SUSTAIN (the body of the sound and how long it lasts), and DECAY (how the sound stops).
Think of the final tone you want. Try to figure out what kind of attack, sustain and decay you want.
ATTACK: Is the attack quick and sharp or slow and mellow. There are several ways you can alter the attack. Compression On/Off and it's parameters (if you use compression you can loose a little of the inital atack of the note and you may need to increase the gain a bit to regain it), my trick is to use the tube screamer with drive set to zero and tone control set low, pickup sim on/off (humbuckers and single coils have different attacks), and gate attack all affect the initial attack of the note.
SUSTAIN: Here I'm refering to the body of the sound and this is where I think the EQ has the most effect. The amp and cabinet you choose also become important. Distortion (gain and stombox distortion), delay, chorus, vibrato, phase, flange, and compression ratio (higher ratios give longer sustain but will reduce the overall dynamic range).
DECAY: Here I'm talk specifically about the note stops (all good things must come to an end) not how long it lasts. How the sound ends can be affected by things like reverb, copression (higher lower ratios give quicker decay), gating (remember that gating will only shorten a note NOT lengthen it), reverb and delay can help provide the illusion of a longer decay.
Keep in mind that the guitar is actually a percussive instrument. Once the string is struck the sound begins to decay and there is very little you can do to alter this. Violins and wind instruments on the other hand can have almost (depending on how long you can keep bowing or blowing) infinite sustain.
In my opinion heavy effects will muddy the notes and make complex harmonies sound bad. Sometimes heavy effected sound is desired. I would suggest that you think about effects such as modulation (chorus, flange, etc), delay, and reverb last.
OK, this is just a very quick and dirty list of things I've run into in trying to create my own sound. These are the things I think about and the order in which I think about them. Hopefully this topic will cont
Comments
Check out this posting of his:
http://www.guitarworkstation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1929
Also, a little bit of finger on the string when picking can give you that pinch harmonic which will also change the attack and sustain as well as the overall tone of the note.
Picking over the neck (mellower tone) vs near the bridge (thinner tone) can also affect the general tone.
I think it's more important to focus on how you actually play than on the effects and set up. Good playing can make up for poor sound but good sound will not make up for poor playing ! Think about all those amazing blues guitar player who played with a cheap guitar through a Pig Nose amp ! They still sounded amazing !
I can see that you are a perfectionist in both your technique and your sound. I thought your sound is fantastic. You obviously spend alot of time reading and studying technique and sound. I really like the music I have heard you post.
I absolutely agree with you about your comments on technique. I really think that is what makes a difference between a good player and a great player.
Regarding you comments about attack, decay, sustain ( and I believe you forgot about release)
I would find it hard to believe that your ears, or anyone elses for that matter, could hear a particular sound, and distinguish between a 10msec attack and lets say a 50 msec attack without any graphical means of interpreting the waveform. Not to mention knowing what effect on the gnx4 would give you that particular attack time. Rather, certain waveforms will be rich in harmonics which is heard by the human ear. A pure sinewave sounds like crap, however as that sinewave become more like a square wave... (in a sense, increasing the attack time) the sounds starts producing more odd order harmonics which gives it a fuller sound.
Dr Mike, you obviously do a good job of creating a good sound, and if I am wrong and you can break down a sound into attack, decay sustain and release just by listening to a sound, then your ears and mind far exceed mine and most musicians. Your brain would be the equivalent of some high-end DSP processors
just my opinion
- bababoey
mrgreen
My use of the terms \"Attack\", \"Sustain\", and \"Decay\" was not meant to be interpreted in strict and literal termonology. I was using these terms merely as a means to discuss the process of constructing a desired sound or patch for the GNX unit.
Attack, for this purpose, is meant to be the initial begining of the sound (note or chord). While I'm not sure of the exact length of time for a \"Just noticeable differnce\" I argue that a difference of 40 millisecond might be noticeable. Think about the \"Latency\" of recording software when using your GNX to record. What's the latency set to ? How many millisecods? Try turning up the latency to 40 ms. Notice the difference ? I'll bet you will and wouldn't want to leave it there when you record.
Check out this thread:
http://www.guitarworkstation.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2308
If you play around with synthesizers enough, one of the parameters that can affect the sound is \"Attack\". Longer attacks produce a sound with a generally softer beginning and (in my opinion) a softer/mellower overall tone.
When I'm trying to create a patch I first try to think of what kind of sound I'd like. Do I want something sharp (short attack) or mellow (longer attack). The two patches I've posted so far have slightly different attack characteristics. My \"Satriani\" patch has a softer attack than my \"DirtBlue\" patch (at least in the clean channel).
Maybe my use of the terms \"Attack\", \"Sustain, and \"Decay\" are not the best and I will gladly accept any other terms that would better embody the concepts I'm attempt to refer to.
As for release... I may be missunderstanding you, but my use of
\"Decay\" was attempting to embody this as process. Unless, by \"Release\" you are referring to the actual sound made by your finger as it lets go of the string, in which case this would be an entirely new sound and would again be (in my terms) part of the attack of that new sound.
Maybe 50msec was a bad example of timing. However there is a huge difference when you are talking about latency and attack. With attack, the note starts at the same time and reaches peak amplitude within that time. With latency, you play something and do not hear it until later. I still think your ear would have a hard time distinguishing between an attack of 10msec and an attack of 40msec (Again, maybe the times are not accurate because typical attack times are probably much faster). Attack is really more dictated by the way you play. Try taking a setting that has the compressor on. Hit a note exactly the same, and vary the attack from slow, med and fast. If you did not know the setting, I doubt you would be able to tell what the attack was set to just by listening to it.
I also feel that what you had described applies more to the envelop of the signal and not necessarily the sound
Mike, I am not trying to put you down in any way. Again, I like the sound you get, so whatever you do obviously works for you. I am an engineer by trade, so I tend to over analyze stuff. (Specifically I design synthesizers for a living. However the ones I design are in the GHz rather than KHz -apples to oranges. )
Anyway, this lends itself to interesting discussion. If anyone disagrees with me please feel free to post and tell me what an idiot I am.
No thin skin here!
-bababoey
mrgreen
What I am attempting to discuss is the final sound. This can become a very technical discussion and would as such not be of much use to most people. I am hoping that (for those that might benefit from such a discussion) it might be possible to discuss the creation of a patch for the GNX unit in the simplest and most intuitive terms possible. I used the terms Attack, Susstain, and Decay to refer to: the beginning of the sound (i.e., the pick attacks the string), the middle of the sound (i.e., how the sound is sound is sustained, possibly with vibrato:), and the end of the note (i.e., how the note dies and decays either gracefully or with a quick palm press against the strings).
Pick the terms you feel most comfortable with it makes no nevermind with me... my hope is that we can find some way of discussing the process of creating a sound... metal or jazz... whatever the sound, there is a path down which it must travel.
It begins in you head. Travels down through your hands. Flows from the tip of your pick and fingers. Through your guitar. Down into your effects and and amplifier and out through your speaker(s) to the listeners ears.
Each person's path is different and unique. What's yours ?