Recording/Mixing Questions

Dave Z

Hello. I need some help and have a few questions regarding recording/mixing. I did a search, but I just want to clarify a few things. Here's how I have been recording:

I use my GNX4 and PTP to record. When I record my guitar, I record a dry track (usb3-4) and a processed track (usb1-2). I make sure the levels stay below 0db in PTP when monitoring my input level for both tracks before recording, and adjust usb1-2 and usb3-4 lvl settings on the GNX4 for the processed track and dry track's input levels in order to keep the levels below 0db.

Now that my recording is done, I want to mix. The questions I have are:
1) Do I normalize each track and sound clip first either in PTP or with a plug-in before I adjust track levels/add fx?
2) Is it ok for the track volume level to go above 0db and into the red during mixing?
3) If I add a fx plug-in to the track by right clicking in the fx window of the track, how do I set the output for the fx( i.e. if I add compression, the gain on the compressor plug-in might be 6.5 db and this causes the output of the track to be loud - do I lower the output gain of the fx or lower the volume of the track?)

I have a bunch of different plug-ins available, but I don't really know the proper place to add these fx's and how to set the output levels of the fx when mixing. I have also tried to normalize the final wav file in Wavelab after I export it from PTP.

Any hints or suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I have tried to do my own research but I still am having trouble with my mixes. Thanks.

Dave Z

iliace

Normalizing is a matter of preference that depends on your mixing technique. Generally, you don't want to do micro-normalizing - i.e., chopping up each clip into small wave fragments and normalizing each one.

However, you probably will want to normalize phrases, or at least parts - for example, chorus and verse, or two sections with two different guitar sounds. This way they'll be close to each other in terms of level. Notice how you'd have to do this more for your dry track than for your processed track.

What I also do, beforehand, is go through the tracks and cut out the parts that look a bit louder than surrounding, and achieving more uniformity in levels. Sonar 5's improved level reduction interface is great for this, since it is no longer limited to +3/-3.

Also don't forget, that as far as preserving signal quality, reducing levels is destructive, whereas boosting is not (or shouldn't be). Moreover, you experience more quality loss by repeated volume change operations (i.e., cut twice in a row, boost then cut, or - worse - cut then boost).

When toying with dynamics as described above, it's a good idea to remember that, if you add EQ to the track later, you might end up boosting something over the dreadful -0.0 crossing. You do not want tracks to go above -0.0 even during mixing. I use Sonar, so many times I'll add a Sonitus compressor at the end of a track taking it down at just about -0.2 to -0.5, but with a fast attack/release, and peak limiter enabled and a brickwall ratio (20:1, 30:1). However, you will still want to make sure that the track is not constantly going above -0.0 without compression. You can do that with most compression plugins, and of course with hardware compression devices.

The way to adjust tracks is to use the two volume controls.

See if that does it for you.

guitar3456

There are many ways. Normalizing...so long as the product SW is good enough. I seldom use it. In console view, try not to go into the red on any track or output level.

Play around with a few things. Here are some (PTP mainly) things to try:

Panning arrangements
Track doubling- this is great for ryth guitar tracks. Record a mono track and then copy it. Eq one up in bass, scoop the mids a bit. Leave the other one alone. Pan the tracks 15-20% away from center. Pan your bass track 5% in opposition from the eq'd guitar track. Doctor the 2 guitar tracks with a little bit (3% level) of the Lexicon Pantheon...your guitar tracks will stand out! Other times I'll copy 3 additional tracks, like for metal. I'll hard pan L-R 2 scooped tracks and the remaining two I'll pan at 25-30% with the MID boosted a little..not much. Not that you need as many tracks but you can get a very resolved punch using duplicate tracks that have unbalanced EQ.

One other cool thing to try is take a simple guitar track, copy it. Now move the track in track view just a hair away from the other to get some very interesting overlays.

EQ after pre mixing should be an optional thing. You don't want too much. When mastering, the dynamics ( compression if added) will enhance trakcs for that punchiness. For voc's/drums you can use the Pantheon at about 5-7% mix level (wetness). You may also \"select all\" with the Pantheon reverb at 2-3% mix.. That along with the dynamic compression can get that FM type sound on your master. There are so many ways to do different things. We all have different methods. Best way is to experiment and learn from your gear. Some like more, some prefer less of another. Plus, it depends on the song istelf. Style and Genre..things like that. For any lead guitat tracks, keep them close to center ( if you want it that way) and bump the mids, or add comp for a boost. Most prefer the EQ bump on the mids at 1.5-1.8K region. Not too much though.

In any case, less is more. Whether EQ, Comp, EFX (reverbs) etc. Always start with subtle additions.

Dave Z

Thanks for the advice. I tried to remix my Dream Theater cover last night. It sounds a little better than before, but when I played it through my computer speakers at work today the rhy gtr was still too loud and the solos were too low.

Here's what I did this time:

1) I used the trim slider to get the track's volume just below the red( slightly below 6).

2) I then added compression, BBE and reverb to the backing track of drums, bass and keys. When I added the compressor, I adjusted it's output (gain) to read just below zero in it's own output meters. This of course raised the output of the track into the red in PTP, so I lowered the track volume to compensate. I also did a similar process for the guitar tracks.

3) I didn't normalize any of the tracks in PTP, but I imported the mixed down wav file from PTP into Wavelab and performed error correction and normalized the output to 0db in Wavelab. As you can see in the PTP screenshot, I left the Master \"A\" output at -3.5 in order to stop the master output from clipping in PTP and to give me headroom for the normalizing process in Wavelab. I was debating adding more fx in Wavelab to the master wav file like Ozone or compression, but I didn't want to go overboard since I am still new at this.

Here's a PTP screen shot of the track:
http://zatuchney.com/dt/dt.JPG

The new version of the mix is here:
http://zatuchney.com/sounds/overture1928.mp3

Original mix is here:
http://zatuchney.com/sounds/overture1928old.mp3

Thanks again for all of the help, I really want to work on improving my recording and mixing skills.

Dave Z

grathan

Dave, i don't much experience mixing, but what are you playing the mp3 through at home vs at work. Is it the same app each time? ie winamp. In addition to the app that plays the mp3 imparting its on equalization( color ) on your mp3, the speakers can impart their own characteristics as well, putting emphasis on certain frequencies.

KiLLiN-TiMe

Yo Dave!
Must say... I dug your videos!

One of the things I have found when Mixing is that everything you play it through (car stereo, home stereo, computer at work....) is going to sound different. Try playing your tune through as many systems as possible. Try to make your mix so it sounds good through as many systems as possible. Some... will always sound like crap! LOL

I find that most of my mixes sound too bassy through most systems. I have to EQ a bit on the treble side of things to get a good sound on most systems. It's all trial and error.

As far as normalize goes... I'd stay away from it. It tends to bring things up too much. I have much more luck going the +3db at a time mode. Just do it until your close. Then use the faders to bring it up the rest of the way.

And for the record... Never have your signal clip! You can always add to your sound ... but you can never take away from it.

IMHO
KT

iliace

As a matter of fact, most mixes that you hear are different from each other. So, a version of the song that you hear on the radio is differently mixed from the CD, and that is different from the MP3 you download for iPod or akin.

Dave - my only suggestion would be to try mixing rhythm guitar in mono. Because panning (and eq if any) will make a difference on how well what is heard, it makes sense to be more precise with it, and stereo tracks don't always do the trick.

Strategy 1: select your stereo track, go to Edit/Bounce to Track(s), and select \"Mono\" as your format. Delete the stereo track; set pan positions for the resulting Left mono track towards the right, and Right mono track towards the left. This will let you set both the center and perceived width of the signal source. For instance, setting L at -60 pan and R at 40 pan, will give you a perceived center at -10 (slightly to the left) and perceived width of 100 (out of 200 total as in a stereo track).

Strategy 2: bounce to mono as before, but keep only one track. It shouldn't have any processing on it besides amp model and light mono delay for ambience modeling as many supermodel patches have. Then you can run that through a stereo plug-in (make sure track format is stereo). This will keep your mix cleaner by only dealing with one mono channel of audio data.

Dave Z

\iliace\ wrote:

As a matter of fact, most mixes that you hear are different from each other. So, a version of the song that you hear on the radio is differently mixed from the CD, and that is different from the MP3 you download for iPod or akin.

Dave - my only suggestion would be to try mixing rhythm guitar in mono. Because panning (and eq if any) will make a difference on how well what is heard, it makes sense to be more precise with it, and stereo tracks don't always do the trick.

Strategy 1: select your stereo track, go to Edit/Bounce to Track(s), and select \"Mono\" as your format. Delete the stereo track; set pan positions for the resulting Left mono track towards the right, and Right mono track towards the left. This will let you set both the center and perceived width of the signal source. For instance, setting L at -60 pan and R at 40 pan, will give you a perceived center at -10 (slightly to the left) and perceived width of 100 (out of 200 total as in a stereo track).

Strategy 2: bounce to mono as before, but keep only one track. It shouldn't have any processing on it besides amp model and light mono delay for ambience modeling as many supermodel patches have. Then you can run that through a stereo plug-in (make sure track format is stereo). This will keep your mix cleaner by only dealing with one mono channel of audio data.

Thanks. I'll try this out. I mixed the DT song again one last time. This time I removed the fx from the tracks, set the trim on all tracks to zero and used the volume fader to set track levels. I added compression in the aux buss and applied this to the lead tracks, and added bbe sonic maximizer to the master buss to make the mix sound a little better. I still used Wavelab to normalize the final mix.

Here's two screenshots of the new mix:
http://zatuchney.com/dt/dt2a.JPG
http://zatuchney.com/dt/dt2aconsole.JPG


Two last stupid questions:

What is the best way to record the guitar in mono? Should I set the cf 1-2 source to monoall and set the track input in PTP to l, r, or stereo?

If there is no fx added to a track, should trim not be used and left at zero?

Thanks again for all the help.

Dave Z

iliace

Setting PTP to input either L or R is the way to get a mono track. However, you should be careful not to have stereo effects, like [audible] chorus, ping-pong delay, etc. If you do, you'll only get the left half of your signal.

Be careful with sonic maximizer, it's very important not to allow non-BBE signal to mix with processed BBE signal, due to the severe comb filtering that will occur if you do. This will happen even if the unprocessed signal is just a low-level reverb sub return. I like to run the final final final mix through the maximizer, when mixing - this avoid such problems.