Mixer advice

thehootman · June 2008

Hi all,
After a few years of trying to extract something faintly resembling reliable performance from my Behringer mixer, I have decided the time has come to actually buy a decent, reliable mixer.

Of course, nothing comes for free and this all costs astronomical amounts. This lead me to buying something in good second hand condition off ebay or the like (pickup of course).

I have seen for sale around my local area:
10yr \"Excellent condition\" Crest Xr20 - $1000 AUD
8yr old \"very good condition\" soundcraft Lx7 - $999 AUD
As new, original packaging mackie onyx 1620 - $790 AUD

I would appreciate any advice regarding choices such as these. I need somthing that sounds good reliably. Not for live, recording and also jamming for a large band.
Cheers 8) 8)

bluesland · June 2008

I would go for Mackie

shredd · June 2008

FWIW, I have a Behringer 16-ch that I'm very happy with.
But yeah, Mackie is top shelf! I'm betting the Yamaha's are pretty nice too...

parashredder · June 2008

I also use a Mackie 12 ch., mics, 3 guitars, GNX4, keyboards, and soon Roland drums through it, and still have open channels to use!

Easy to use, works smooth, plenty of connection jacks (1/4\"s, XLR's, RCA's)!

I'd recommend Mackie over Behringer, after seeing the difference, myself!

agelessrocker · June 2008

IMHO a Soundcraft will last longer and be more transparent than a Behrringer or a Mackie. I use a Yamaha O1V at home which is nice, but I had a Soundcraft 40L previous to that which had the best parametrics I've ever heard on a board.

shredd · June 2008

A Mackie, while very expensive, is assured quality.
A Behringer is a sure steal - their whole line is a great value, with more/better features as you go up the line - but not in Mackie's league, sound-wise.
There's in betweens...I'm betting SoundCraft is one, Yamaha another, I'd stay away from Nady or Peavey. (although I have much Peavey eqp't and love it all...)

wildmann · June 2008

8) I made the mistake of going to gearslutz.com--Nothing [mixers/amps/mics] anyone here mentioned, brand/model wise, is discussed, even in the \"Low End\" gear forum, except perhaps Soundcraft. Just sayin, -- they talk about the stuff used in International \"High Dollar \"studios [and home studios of \"The Rich an' Famous.] It was an INTERESTIN' Informative Experience, kinda told me Where I Stand, ---In \"The COSMIC SCHEME OF THINGS\" That said, if you're lookin' for super high quality, write down the names of the stuff they use, and discuss there. Then try to find a Used,but not Abused mixer by one of those \"Beautique\" type Brands. Probably have to be 4, :? or 5 years old, but you might get close to what your seekin'. :roll: Somebody, in the Low End Forum, mentioned Mackie, and the consensus was, that it wasn't any better than BEHRINGER! :shock: Guess I'll haveta use ,my Behringer, Samson, an' Peavey Mixers fer Paper-weights!! they sound great, and work well, for MY applications, but, what the h--- do I know, I just useta do this stuff Full-time fer a livin'. [part-time now] :P

bluesland · June 2008

The Mackie Onyx 1620 is a very good quality mixer, I've worked a couple of times with it (usually I use a Mackie 1604 VLZ which I'm very happy with) and believe me, the preamps are looong way from the VLZ, The Perkins EQ is very precise and \"British\". And it has firewire too.
Check it here:
http://www.mackie.com/products/onyx1620/index.html
If I could buy one of those for that price, wouln't think twice

thehootman · June 2008

Thanks for the replies.

I'd be putting (at most at once) 2x stereo guitars, 4 channels of electronic drums, 3 vocals, stereo keys and bass through the mixer. Ideally i'd like a few more preamps than the 8 of the mackie. Also, Id like 6 auxes to create independent headphone mixes for each band member (the crest and soundcraft have these).

I pretty much gathered that mackie is far superior to behringer. 8)

bluesland, when you say that the preamps \"are a looong way from the VLZ\", do you mean better or worse?

Also, does anyone know anything about Crest mixers? Specifically the XR20? I really like the sound of the crest - it has heeaaaaps of features and sounds really good for my purposes. HOWEVER it is ten years old and a feel perhaps that $1000 is a little much for a mixer, of any brand, of that age.

This particular Mackie does not have the firewire option card.

Thanks

bluesland · June 2008

Better!!
But I can see for your comment that the Onyx 1620 is out of question, and the Firewire card is optional.
Based on the 3 choices you have, secondly I would go for Soundcraft, I can't tell about the Crest, I don't know it.
Take care

guitar3456 · June 2008

Can't say too much comparing Behringer, Mackie and other gear besides Behringer is good, cheap and reliable as long as you take care of it. Mackie is a step above but I see enough of the VLZ's and Onyx units for repairs as I do others. Mackie and Behringer sell more often so to contrast better is offset by user choice and economics.

I see Mackie boards with blown channels all the time. They are no better than some other lines when mic's drop on the floor and blow a mic pre IC. Most of what I see in mixer repairs are from not so typical applications.. spillages inside, droppage, blown channels often related to poor micing, poor mic's or dropped mic's while in operation. Kick mic's set wrong with NO limiter in the loop will usually blow a channel. Bad DI's will blow a channel.

None of these units are impervious to user mishaps. Do any of them just blow channels on their own??? No, not really.

What I do find amazing is that users with an Allen Heath or a Crest will baby that thing. Always careful with inserts, connections of XLR cables.. then the Behringer owner is not so gingerly with their unit. So it's hard to suggest that Behringer has crappy connections when the user is beating the cheapo board like crazy while the other guy with an expensive board is extra careful.

Behringer's get treated like rental cars. At least every cheap mixer that I have seen does. The Allen Heath usually gets a nice rack case and the Behringer, Peavey or Phonic comes in right out of the backseat or trunk. Filthy, dirty and beat up. So it's easy to say Allen Heath outlasts a Behringer or Peavey... why??? cause the user and owner of an AH board is extra cautious.

To this day I have never seen a $300-$400 Behringer mixer accompanied by a nice $200 mixer case. I do see many AH, Crest and other boards come in affixed to $400 rack cases. Nobody buys a dust cover for a Behringer mixer, but they make one for the AH if they can't buy one.

thehootman · June 2008

Well, no. I cant agree with your statement.

I treat ALL my gear with TLC. This mixer has never been out of the house! The channels drop out intermittently, the preamps sound horrible and stop working (usually half way through an excellent take). I wouldnt complain about it if I had abused it. But I havnt. Sitting there, all by itself, used with line level equipment most of the time and otherwise a condensor mic, it has begun to die inside. Im sick of reseating the ribbon cables and sick of resoldering the dodgy joints. I would have no problem if I just used this as a jamming mixer, but I use it to record. I just cant have it continually screwing up.

Behringer gear is great if you dont want to spend a lot. The particular mixer I have is the UB2442FX-Pro. The higher end behringers are great. This one is not high end.

Anyway, I'm sure that any mixer can have its pres blown by bad connections. Just like you can crash any car if you are silly enough (or someone else is). However, you can bet your bottom dollar that a Mercedes will be more reliable and higher quality than a Hyundai.

thehootman · June 2008

EDIT - please delete this duplicate post

jamminmj · June 2008

While not a recommendation for a mixer I will say that many problems can come to surface over time in mixers no matter how you use them. Oxidation can build up on jack contacts especially if they don't get used or plugs sit in them for long periods of time. Solder joints can crack from heating and cooling from equipment being turned on and off. I tend to leave mine on most of the time in the winter months. Pots dry out out from not being rotated and become intermittant especially when trying to pass low level signals. And then there is just the normal dust and dirt that floats around in the air that gets into faders. Humidity also plays a roll in this if you live in a humid area and then of course you probably have an air conditioner which will be another factor. A regular maintenance schedule of rotating pots and exercising jacks by inserting a plug a few times to remove oxidation can help keep this to a minimum. And then there is the gear that sits in the garage and doesn't get used much. Spiders love to make nests inside of that stuff.

shredd · June 2008

'hoot and 'jammin are right on. I have a mid-line (16 ch) behringer mixer, and while it gets babied - as does all my gear - it's never let me down in any way.
Now, if I put it in the attic or the garage or kept it in the trunk of my car, then sure, it'd be no surprise to have it flame out or act up. But I take care of my gear, and it takes care of me.

Now if 'hoot would just send me one of those adorable Aussie cuties, I could do the same with her. :twisted:

thehootman · June 2008

Hi,
Just an update - the crest has now gone, removed early for some reason. Im guessing he sold it via classifieds or something.

Anyway, a mackie 24.4 VLZ, 18 months old, has appeared for $800.

What would be best for the money? The new Onyx 1620 for $790 (+ $60 p/h) or the 18 month old 24.4 VLZ for $800 (i can drive to pick it up)?

Basically the Onyx has (supposedly) better mic preamps, better eq. Also has built in DI on two channels and direct out via D25 connectors. The 24.4 has 12 more mic preamps (20) and 6 auxes (versus 4).

Thanks

guitar3456 · June 2008

Mixers for recording and mixers for Live sound, that's a different comparison. Recording is going to be more about mic pre's and so on.

I was also describing from a service standpoint since we see a variety of high end and economy mixers for repairs on things like jacks, faders, blown input pre's etc.

The Behringer comments are just based on what is frequently seen from many budget gear users. If you are going for better recording desks there are others to choose from. One of the cheap desktops I use the DD3216 digital mixer and I upgraded the mic pre's to NEC's newer opamps which blow out anything else with a much more improved noise floor even above Analog Devices recent versions.

I've often swapped Ic's on mixers that users want to specialize for recording. Most often 4-8 channels out of a 16 or even a 32 channel desk are swapped mainly for channels specifically assigned to vocal or instrument ( sax, live piano, horns) track. Typically, the average swap is 4 channels of upgraded preamps. It's not often you need more than that on a simple desk.

Then the next step is what is on the actual recording gear?? Why upgrade the mixer when you have a sub par recording sound card or interface? Seems the first step is to upgrade the sound card components. IOW, you can have an Allen Heath console and if going to a digital mix vioa soundcard, if the soundcard is budget the net result is still limited to that pc hardware.

Always start with knowing what is in the mic pre's of interface of the recording soundcard or interface medium. I can't tell you how many times somebody has a Mackie VLZ or Onyx and asks why there is no real improvement. I ask about the sound card and they say Sound Blaster or something else... you need to start with a higher quality interface.

Most common in any mixer, soundcards are 4558, 4560m 4580 mic pre's. LM4562's from NEC are not yet being used in most manufacturing due to initial pricing of around $4-5 ea. Compared to these other chips around .05 to maybe .80 ea. It all varies among companies with selection of capacitors, mf resistors, and quality of sliders and even board layouts.

Tapco ( mackie by-product) is right along the same line as other budget mixers from Alesis, Behringer

Mackie Onyx
Soundcraft
Yamaha- MG32
Allen Heath- ZED24 is a very nice board- comparable to used Onyx pricing. Check those out too

Crest was bought out by Peavey

OTOH if the concern is mic-pre's alone, then a dedicated mic preamp for recording is almost always better than what is on budget mixers or even mid range gear.

thehootman · June 2008

Thanks g3456

I have a MOTU 24i interface and also a M-Audio Delta 66 so the interface is definitely not the limiting factor (the MOTU has simply delicious A/D convertors, even with its age).

So any more opinions on the smaller, less-auxes but better sound Onyx versus the larger, more pres, more aux but aimed-at-live-mixing 24.4 VLZ Pro for multitrak recording of a 6 piece?

Thanks

guitar3456 · June 2008

If you are using the MOTU are you running I/O's directly to that or are you using a mixer currently before the MOTU?

Many times with PC recording, a mixer is not really needed. The DAW has the internal mixer and an outboard can be redundant and actually detract from better quality I/O ports in the MOTU, Soundcard etc.

I generally use a mixer to track drums. Usually down to 2 stereo pairs of OH's and Room mic's. Snare and individual toms go direct to either a VS recorder or right into Sonar via firewire interface.

OTOH you might want the mixer for routing monitor sends etc. Even with that, most interfaces will allow monitor /Aux sends to a headphone amp and so on.

What is your general purpose for the recording mixer? Maybe you just need a control surface?

Many examples of home studios do not use an actual mixer these days since the DAW and interface is determining what you record (and not affected by mixer channel strips).

Many users have taken mixers on the outboard to run monitors but fail to realize those speakers are NOT getting what is on the DAW mix reference. This is why control surface mixers are used instead. You still get the control as a typical board, but it only directs the software.

Typical HR DAW hardware:

Interface, Soundcard
Control Surface
DAW software

If you still want a mixer between the source and the MOTU interface the ONYX, ZED24 (A&H) are some of the most popular. The A&H unit takes grief for USB but is fine for straight analog. However if it was my choice, I'd have a simple mixer (8ch) and use when I need it. Keep the path to the MOTU clean. Select a control surface to run your DAW ( or use the mouse and KB ).

thehootman · June 2008

The MOTU has no mic pres and also only accepts +4db inputs. Thus, some form of amplification is needed before it to attain optimum input levels. Also, when my band records it is generally easier to use a mixer to have more flexible routing options for differing headphone mixes and so on. And obviously I need several mic pres for the several mics that operate simultaneously. The MOTU only offers an output of 1 stereo pair which isnt really adequate for monitoring purposes.

I do all my mixing on the computer and so far havnt had a \"creative block\" using the mouse and keyboard.

I gather from what you are saying, you would go for the Onyx? The smaller, higher quality mic-pre option? Thanks again

8) 8) 8)

jamminmj · June 2008

I may have said this before, but there is a saying in the audio industry. And that is if you have a million sound system and a five dollar mic, you have a five dollar sound system or, your sound system is only as good as your least expensive component which also includes cables. Get the best you can afford and don't sweat it. I would probably buy another MOTU and feed it with insert sends or get one that has mic pre's and split them.
As far as Behringer, I won't give them a dime of my dollars no matter how cheap they are. I will not encourage ripoffs and they are endless.

guitar3456 · June 2008

The Onyx, AH, or Yamaha are all good choices.

Wasn't sure which MOTU unit you had since there are several. I do remember MOTU having their own break out box with Mic Pre's but no sense limiting your routing options. Go with the console board.

guitar3456 · June 2008

FWIW, many of the mixers you see are made in the same regions and factories overseas. Alesis, Phonic and a few other budget lines are resembling eachother and priced equivalent. Made in China... harder getting away from that these days.

But I agree if you want the better sound, better hardware, a Mackie, Yam, or AH is going to be a much better choice.

As a suggestion made earlier, those boards and even late generation boards can be dramatically improved just by swapping mic'pre components and op amps in the channel strips. Anything from Analog Devices or NEC's new line op amps are great enhancements even for the budget mixers.

There are a few places online that service and modify soundcards from EMU, Sound Blaster, Maudio etc. Usually it's s swap of those op amps and other signal caps. Buth then there's RME and other spec'd out boards and interfaces for the shiznit.

Mixer advice

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