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Need Mixing Advise-rough metal tune

This is the first track I have made with my 7 string and I am looking for some help - especially with the EQing. Everything sounds like mud and all clumped together.

Alibi---This is the first try with my LTD M207 7 string- which sounds like mud anyway. This is just a working/writing draft. I played all the parts to the click track and them did the drums afterwards and not much has been re-recorded afterwards so the rhythm is not exactly tight. The leads have not been worked out very well and need a little practice. I just wanted to get the gist of the idea. As for the bass- I did not work anything out and did the whole song in one take just to get an idea for how it will sound. Other that that -- let me know how you think the song fits together. I have some ideas for vocals, but that is not complete yet and I don't really sing so who knows how that will work out.

Here is the post

http://www.digitech.com/soundcomm/guitar_view_music.asp?productid=199&music_id=3223

The main things I need help on is the selection of the proper models for the rhythm guitars once I re-record everything and them how to EQ them to get a thick enough sound but still be able to get good definition on the base. Everything was done with GNX4 w/ Supermodels with PTP. I have very little recording experience so whatever you have to say will probably help.

Comments

  • one word: BRUTAL!!

    About the clumped together thing... hhmmm well, are you using different tones for each guitar track? I have 3 different tones from 2 guitars on my rough track recording and I think it separated out well.

    I used Audacity for my recording because it seemed that PTP liked to saturate my distorted tones a little too much for my liking, maybe the saturation effect is what is making it sound like mud to you.

    I hope this helps, either way... excellent playing!!
  • The only thing I can say is to play with the settings/pan/compression to find a way to have each individual instrument stand out and limit the \"muddiness.\" I would place the individual guitar track on \"solo\" (or mute the others, your choice) and tweak the eq for each track separately.

    Does PTP have a phase button (I've never used it)? I remember recording some stuff on the GNX in Sonar and multiple tracks seemed muddy until I set the phase for alternating tracks.

    With that said, I really think a good mix would being this piece to a whole new level. Even with the muddiness, I thought it was pretty good. I'm really not into \"over the top\" distorted sounds, but I listened to the entire thing. That's says something about the piece in itself.
  • Thanks for the input. I might try using Sonar 6 if I can get it to work right. I have tried it before and ended up loosing work because of it crashing. Maybe a conflict w/ PTP? I don't know. Seven Lee PM'd me some stuff on EQing and I will try that. I will also try to use some of the MFX presets and play one Rhythm track on channel A them go to warp or B for the second take/harmony and see if that gets me different enough tones to keep some seperation. I don't get alot of time for this stuff between work and the National Guard so it may be awhile before I get it re-recorded and another mix posted. I will put up another reply when I get it done. Thanks.
  • If I understand your comments on your recording, you did not lay down a bass line. So your 7-string is the only guitar laying down the low end \"mud\". Since you already stated that your 7-string sounds like mud, it would seem to me that you got a pretty good recording of your guitar. But maybe that is not what you want.

    I have read that some tricks used by the pros include using spectrum analysis of the freqs used by your guitar(s) and making sure that there is no overlap in freqs. That alone may reduce your \"mud\" sound. But, if you didn't use a bass track on your recording, it would seem that everything is coming from your 7 string. Maybe you can apply some kind of low end filter on the track to knock out those lower end freqs.

    The little recording I have done has taught me that when laying down rhythm tracks on the guitar, I felt I got a better recording using only the high end strings on the rhythm track and left the bass guitar for the bottom. Then I had some good separation in sound, if that makes sense.

    But, that kind of defeats the purpose of having a 7 string guitar, I guess. I thought part of the allure of the 7 string was that low end sound, but maybe it sounds better to you live than on the recording.

    Still, I thought you had a great track and when you add vocals that may distract the listener from the low end \"mud\" that you currently don't like. I wish I had your talent. It sounded pretty killer to me. How did you lay down the drum track? The drum track sounded really good to me, too.

    There are some real experts on this forum and I hope they have time to comment on your track. I would like to see how they would suggest any improvement(s).
  • Thanks for the reply. I actually did do a base line but it is just not very consistent because I didn't take the time to work anything out for it, I just played the whole song through in one take and mostly just followed the guitar part or played a fifth up. As for the drums most of the beats came from the GNX 4 beats- I used the midi files downloaded from the tutorial website. I also have the expansion pack metal beats - I think from Twiddly Bits or something. I also took a couple fills from an older drum program called Drag and Drop Drummer which is no longer sold. I used midi files for everything and played them with the \"Power\" kit in the GNX4. I did a little editing in the piano roll view to adjust some of the beats a little, especially on the pentuplet rhythm parts. Thanks for the compliments. I wish I had more recording talent, but I guess I have to learn somehow.
  • Hopefully that EQ pdf helps you out...I have alot more stuff on recording and engineering I'm thinking of posting somewhere also...
  • ...I actually did do a base line but it is just not very consistent because I didn't take the time to work anything out for it, I just played the whole song through in one take and mostly just followed the guitar part or played a fifth up....

    I play bass guitar in two different bands. I am no expert, by any means, but I have learned that the bass guitar cannot just follow the guitar part. It just gets too \"muddy\" when everyone is hitting the same bottom note together. So, while keeping the root alive, I have learned to either hit the bass note between the rhythm or to sustain the note through a progression. I don't know if that makes sense to you, but playing live, I quickly learned that bass guitar and rhythm guitar are different instruments and serve different functions in the music we play. Playing the bass guitar like a rhythm guitar and following the rhythm line, just doesn't work for me.

    And, by the way, I only started playing the bass guitar this past year but had played rhythm guitar for about 20+ years and a very small amount of lead guitar. When I first started playing bass guitar, I thought it would pretty easy because there are only 4 or 5 strings. I quickly learned that playing bass guitar well is alot more challenging than I thought. My hats off to the real bass players now that I can understand and appreciate their contribution to the music. Bass players = small ego + big heart!

    Since I am about ready to start programming the drum tracks again this fall, I was really impressed with your drum track and I thank you for sharing how you built the track. You really have alot of talent. This forum is great in that so many people are willing to share their knowledge and experience with recording/playing/etc... Best wishes.
  • I just discovered the Sonitus Multiband (compressor/limiter) in the effects tab. I think that along with more panning, that may solve at least some of my problems.
  • This jam needs some serious compressor work and panning of individual tracks. That should take care of the muddy sound. Add compressor to each track seperately and the remix everything for balance of sound and pan individually each track for the final mix. Be sure each track doesn't over power another track. You want to hear each instrument individually in the final mix. Good Luck! Wild stuff!! :D
  • It seems there should be enough going on in this song? I mean it's not like you don't have changes & movements of the music? I mean the drums change up greatly!! good drumtrack man!! BUT I find myself loosing interest torwards the end? Not sure why just start loosing me about 1/2 to 3/4 theu the song. As far as the mud & seperation? I say seperation panning tracks. Turning them on 1 at a time & trying out the EQ & commpression & such to get the sound just like you want. BUT I mean realy it sounded fine for what it was a Metal song with Low End Chunk I don't hear the mud as a problem it sounds like the style you were going for. Good Job Michael!! 8)
  • \Rampage\ wrote:
    ...remix everything for balance of sound and pan individually each track for the final mix. Be sure each track doesn't over power another track. You want to hear each instrument individually in the final mix...:D

    OK, here are my questions. What would you recommend for panning of the instruments? I assume that lead vocal should be centered, and harmonies or chorus vocals should be just slightly off center both left and right. How would you pan the guitars? Slightly off center, full left or right? Also, with many GNX4 effects being in stereo, would it be best to leave that guitar track(s) centered? Bass guitar is usually mono for us, would you pan that track? The GNX4 drums are in stereo to begin with. Would you leave them centered?

    Wow, too many questions! Perhaps I just should ask if anyone knows of a good website that addresses these issues and teaches you how to record at home with the hardware and software equipment we have. I don't mind experimenting, but I hate reinventing the wheel.
  • I have been just able to get started on re-recording the piece. So far I have found that panning the rhythm track on 2 separate takes on the intro bit works good if I pann them hard but on the verses and choruses I have to keep panning below 30 percent because it does not sound good with harmonized parts if I go beyond that. I don't know anything about vocals yet because I have never recorded them before so that should be an adventure. I took the mixed down Wav file on the track I posted and played it through winamp and messed with the eq a lot to see what would make it sound better. I found that if I boost the track up about +10db and drop out the 170 and 300 Hz almost to the bottom, boost 60Hz and 3k-6k Hz slightly much more like what I want my end product to sound like - still bad but getting closer. (It still works a little on the Mp3 file that I posted but the effect is much less pronounced). I will focus most on those frequencies in Eq and compression and see how it goes. As for loosing interest towards the end of the song, I can understand that - especially without vocals. I will see how it starts to work out once I have some vocals and then see if I think it requires anything additional to keep things moving. I am not committed to having it's current structure be the absolute endstate. Thanks everone for your encouragement and suggestions. I will keep you posted.
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