JCM 800 2205 (50W) or similar

Peter of Sweden · August 2006

Need some advice.

I'm looking for a JCM 800 2205 (50W) head or similar. Tried one last week and fell in love, with that tube crunch.
Found a couple of people selling their \"jcm 800...with new tubes...\", but no tube names in ads.

What kind of tubes (manifact.) give the \"original sound\"?
What kind of cab/speakers give the \"original sound\"?
Someone told me that the 2210 (100w) model could be \"moded\" to a 2205 just by \"taking out\" tubes... Is this true? (It seems to be a lot more 2210s out there).
If 2205s sound is what i want, can I get the same crunch sound from, say, JCM 2000 DSL50 or TSL60? Is there another marshall that can match 2205?
Which one of DSL50 and TSL60 have the best crunch sound?

//Peter

philflood · August 2006

A great deal of information is available at this link. I believe Marshall's tubes are actually labeled \"Marshall\" so I'm not sure who the actual manufactuer is. The head you are looking at had 5 ECC-83 tubes (which can be replaced with 12AX7 tubes) and 2 EL34 power tubes, I believe. 4 of the ECC-83 tubes are in the preamp section. I don't know if pulling out an EL34 would \"make it into\" a 2205. I would guess if it powers up without one of the EL34s in it, it would be running at 50 watts power output but I don't know if that is OK on the amp.

http://www.drtube.com/marshall.htm#JCM800

I hope we can get guitar3456 to weigh in on this issue. He would seem to be the guy with the most knowledge in this area.

guitar3456 · August 2006

2205's use the diode clipping, changes in tone caps, and other things that influenced the sound from the 2203. 2210's went to a bridge rect stage to \"balance\" the gain stages. Less on the filtering, more on the high end with MV cranked. ( ie this amp goes to 11).. Going to 11 was cool, but most did not like the high end sizzle of the 2210 like you have in todays DSL's which are PCB mounted and incorporate SS preamp Ic's to get additional overdrive. There are resistors that can be changed in the PI circuit to clean things up as well.

Most owners want the SI diodes replaced with Germanium type.

Second, the DSL's incorp relays for channel OD enabling.. that means dead silence for about 500 msec. Many use a dist pedal on the OD1 to avoid the relay and the abrasive additional SS IC sound.

Be careful of changes in the tubes. Most of the plate voltages in the 2205 were capable for using EL34's, 6l6's and others would get beat up pretty quick unless a suppressor mod was added. Tubes will not change the sound as much as the tone circuit filters will. There are dozens of mods for those depending on what sound you are going for. basically, some think EL34's are more for the raw, and 6L6's for cleaner sounds.. tube changes alone are not as obvious.. some of which is psychological than it is technically.. on an orig amp, it's hard to tell.. If it was already modded then it's obvious. many used amp owners have no idea if it's OEM or had been modified.

last thing to watch out for- EI tubes in newer marshalls DSL's are thinner physically, the chassis hole punches for the tubes have to be rheamed or repunched to allow JJ's, EH, or other brands to fit.

As for cabs- 1960A is a standard.. some like the G12t75's and others prefer V30's. V30 for classic sounds, G12 for heavier. Some prefer Mesa cabs since they are oversized and give more low end brute cranked.

Peter of Sweden · August 2006

\guitar3456\ wrote:

2205's use the diode clipping

I thought jcm800 was pure tube gain, and jcm900 was using diode clipping...

guitar3456 · August 2006

2203-2204 did not use D/C.

2205/2210 tone circuits were later modified to make the 900 Series. D/C remained a staple of the 900 tone, Jubilee ( with dod250 circuit basically) Slash's tone etc. 2205's a low vol (unmodified) were fizzy in many regards. The appeal was when they are cranked. The D/C then introduces higher gain, but less fizz. It's very hard today to find a 2205/2210 that has NOT been modified.

90% I have seen have had some sort of mod.. whether tone, bias, diode, ect.

If you played one, liked it, and it was smooth at low vol's it's been modified. Which mods is anyone's guess. You could simply have a bias change to warm it up as well. Kind of the clean up jobs done on SLO's and 5150's.

Peter of Sweden · August 2006

Should I look for 2203/2204 instead? One channel, ALL tube!
The problem is that I live in the north of Sweden a long way from those who sells. Can't try before buy

shredd · August 2006

\Peter of Sweden\ wrote:

Should I look for 2203/2204 instead? One channel, ALL tube!
The problem is that I live in the north of Sweden a long way from those who sells. Can't try before buy

No problem. Send me a gorgeous, adoring local babe that loves tall American guys. I'll send you all the Marshalls you want, and you can keep the one you like!

guitar3456 · August 2006

If you have tried one you liked, the mods may already be present.. mods as in diode removal or replacement with GE type, bias corrections, etc. These amps are very good but best when you let them roar. Many like the 2203-2204 since it's true to the pureness of tubes.. but pureness is subjected to each person's idea as such.

Nothing bad about a 2205/2210 cab be said. In this particular area you may want to look at a Laney AOR50 as a similar tone if you can't find a 2203/2204

Schafrocks · August 2006

I have a JCM800 2204 which is the 50 watter. It has not been modified. It has mullard reissue EL34s. I gotta tell ya, I get great tone out of it. Not too many ways you can scew up the tone. Put an OD in front of it for some more juice, crank it and your there. Only thing is it is very loud and it just doesn't sound as good until you really crank it and even at two it is very loud. I've had some decent amps in my day but this one is the sound I've been looking for - raw anld rockin

Peter of Sweden · August 2006

Anyone know anything bout Mesa/Boogie mk III, head with a 2x12\" cab with vertical mounted speakers (Cab is almost as big as a marshall 1960a).

wickerman · August 2006

\Schafrocks\ wrote:

I have a JCM800 2204 which is the 50 watter. It has not been modified. It has mullard reissue EL34s. I gotta tell ya, I get great tone out of it. Not too many ways you can scew up the tone. Put an OD in front of it for some more juice, crank it and your there. Only thing is it is very loud and it just doesn't sound as good until you really crank it and even at two it is very loud. I've had some decent amps in my day but this one is the sound I've been looking for - raw anld rockin

I agree my JCM900 doesn't sound no where near as good as it does cranked.

Schafrocks · September 2006

I had a Mesa/Boogie Mark III simulclass w/4X12 cab. Bought it new in 1985. The clean channel was very good. Very Chimey and Fender like. I always thought the distortion was muddy, compressed with a loose bottom end. It also had active tone controls which made it difficult to dial in because of the way the bass effects the mids and highs and so forth. I was always jacking around with it trying to get my sound. You'd play in the same club but it never sounded the same from night to night. Power output tube eater too. I had to put tubes in mine at the very least, once a year. Very versitile but you have to work at it. This is also a very loud amp and you have to push it to get a good sound. I prefer the JCM 800 that I have 10 times over the Boogie and the JCM was a lot cheaper. I like the in your face Marshall type sound better. It's the type of amp that makes you play. It will not cover up your mistakes. Not many options which, makes it very easy to dial in. Takes pedals well up front (no effects loop). If I were you, I would try out the Boogie before I bought. Just wasn't my cup of tea, but it may be yours.

Later.

KS

Peter of Sweden · September 2006

\Schafrocks\ wrote:

I prefer the JCM 800 that I have 10 times over the Boogie and the JCM was a lot cheaper.

What about Marshall Anniversary -92. I might get a really good deal on a anniversary. Unfortunately it's at the other end of Sweden...

Peter of Sweden · September 2006

double post, sorry

Peter of Sweden · September 2006

I'll probably go for the Anniversary.
Then I must have a cab... I know the differance between a 1960A or 1960B. But hell, there are a LOT of different speakers in them, G12-M-25 (\"Greenbacks\"), G12H-30, G12-65, G12M-70, G12T-75, V30, just to mention a few...
I'm lost. :?
I'm from the hardrock era of 70-80s. (Purple, Sabbath, Zeppelin, Priest, ACDC...)
Could someone complete this list? \"Standard\" cab to each amp, and examples of guitarists using them

Amp

Cab

Guitarist
=======

======

=====
JTM45

?

?
JMP 800, 2204

?

?
JCM 800, 2204

?

?
JCM 800, 2205----?

Schenker (UFO, MSG)
?

?

Blackmore
?

?

Angus
?

?

guitar3456 · September 2006

All you need for those tones are the 1960a cab and JCM800. G12t75 is pretty much a standard. If you want more Angus sounds, he used customs and later was using Boogie Rack amps with a JMP1. His basic early tone was a JP plexi and an SG and a cord. Cold biasing was added in his studio head, but the touring head was dimed anway and he didn't do as much with gear.. so he said in GP magz..

Angus' amps were biased a little bit cold so they would saturate more.

So many others listed there experimented with 4-5 versions of each head and its hard to tell if they used one head for crunch, and one for rythym. Most did on stage. Blackmoore with Rainbow had a JCM800 for Ryth and a SLO for leads when I saw them ions ago. With the latest DP tour he was using Engl's.

You also have to keep in mind the stomp boxes they use for tones. Tone bones have some good ones and are frequent flyers on Marshall tones.

When my band toured we used a combination of heads cabs depending on the venue. Darker- G12t75's, for Mids V30's, For open air Greenbacks. I had a JCM800 2204 for Ryth, TS9, Ibanez Chor, EH Mem man delay, and a Second JCM800 for lead tones through a boost pedal. The cab idea with fullstacks is that one stack had G1275's and the top angled cab had V30's. So the soundguy can pick from 2 cabs mic'd and get the results they wanted.. ie darker or more midrange.

We do the same today. My cab has Em Swamp Thangs on Bottom and G12t75's on top. I can mic tops or bottoms for tones. Most of the sounds from the amp I hardly ever hear since I am seldom positioned anywhere close to it. So it's the soundmans job to clarify the monitor mix for members and myself. If I use my Ear Candy cab 212 one has a Emin ST left and a Modeling 12 on the right side. Once again, I can differentiate the tones selected by micing either speaker or both to the FOH.

FWIW, modded or not, NO 2 speakers and or amps will ever sound the same. Stock, specs are one thing.. real world is another. The paper and the magnet will never react identical since so many other physical differences affect what really happens.. hth

JCM 800 2205 (50W) or similar

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